Blarge administration

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Nice parrot line....None of what you said addresses the play as I presented it.

Pregame has NOTHING to do with how you ultimately resolve this situation.

If the player is coming along the line separating the two areas (and the player received the ball in that location), just who's area is it in and who's area is it actually coming from?

The point is that the NCAA-W rule has holes in it...there are situations that it still doesn't resolve.

The officials STILL have to agree about exactly where the foul occurred to determine who's primary it was in....and some plays will be in both.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Camron - what "holes" are you talking about in the NCAA-W mechanic?

When the players are straddling two primaries and is moving in a direction that is neither toward or away from either one, who's call is it?

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

How do you handle ANY double-whistle situation? How about a double whistle where one official has a foul, and the other official signals a travel? And the play happened in a dual-coverage area? How does a crew handle that in NCAA-M or NFHS, vs. the NCAA-W rule and mechanic on a blarge?

Easy...ALL other double whistles involve TWO different events. You decided which happened first and penalize accordingly. The blarge is ONE single event....neither could happen before the other....with two different opinions about what happened. It is a matter of deciding which person is right...or not.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Pre-gaming these plays is the BEST way to determine how they will be resolved on the court. And the blarge is no different than any other double-whistle situation where two officials have different calls.

How does pregaming decide where a play will happen on the court? That is the problem, not that you'll yield to the primary.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

To me, the double foul call on a blarge is simply a cop-out call, and there is absolutely no rule basis behind it. However, I understand the reason for the call is because officials still do not always use the proper mechanics, so when they don't in this case, both teams get penalized. It's not fair to one of the teams, but perhaps that's the penalty for an official screwing up.

Actually, I feel the NCAA-W method is the cop-out. NCAA-W rules arbitrarily determine who is getting the foul based on whether their foot was 6 inches on one side of an invisible line or the other....not based on the actions of the players. The official who got it wrong just as well could be the one the NCAA-W rules defer to.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But, if a blarge does happen, the NCAA-W rule is still the best way, overall rule-wise, to handle it, just like any other double-whistle situation.

I disagree. At least with the double foul, you don't end up tagging the person/team with foul that deserved it least while the other person/team gets no penalty. It should either be both or neither.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

When the players are straddling two primaries and is moving in a direction that is neither toward or away from either one, who's call is it?

Camron, before I take the time to reply to your other statements, you still have not answered my question about other double-whistle situations: How should officials handle ANY double-whistle? How about when they each have a different call? Perhaps one has a violation, while the other has a foul, or each official has a foul on a different player; whose call is it? Perhaps the players are straddling the two primaries, as you mention above - you tell me: whose call is it?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Camron, before I take the time to reply to your other statements, you still have not answered my question about other double-whistle situations: How should officials handle ANY double-whistle? How about when they each have a different call? Perhaps one has a violation, while the other has a foul, or each official has a foul on a different player; whose call is it? Perhaps the players are straddling the two primaries, as you mention above - you tell me: whose call is it?

See post #39 Blarge administration

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

See post #39 Blarge administration

That post doesn't answer the question at all.

Again, what is your procedure for a double-whistle, not involving a blarge?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Easy...ALL other double whistles involve TWO different events. You decided which happened first and penalize accordingly. The blarge is ONE single event....neither could happen before the other....with two different opinions about what happened. It is a matter of deciding which person is right...or not.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

That post doesn't answer the question at all.

Again, what is your procedure for a double-whistle, not involving a blarge?

It exactly answers it. See the red text in the quote above. The officials decide which infraction happened first, not who is right. Neither official overrides the other. The second official is still "correct" but the call is not relevant as the ball was already dead (usually).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It exactly answers it. See the red text in the quote above. The officials decide which infraction happened first, not who is right. Neither official overrides the other. The second official is still "correct" but the call is not relevant as the ball was already dead (usually).

And, if it involves two differnet fouls and they can't decide which occurred first, it becomes a simultaneous foul and both are penalized...and you go to the POI..sort of like a doulbe foul. Hmmm.

[M&M Guy]

[QUOTE=Camron Rust;694880]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Easy...ALL other double whistles involve TWO different events. You decided which happened first and penalize accordingly. The blarge is ONE single event....neither could happen before the other....with two different opinions about what happened. It is a matter of deciding which person is right...or not.



It exactly answers it. See the red text in the quote above. The officials decide which infraction happened first, not who is right. Neither official overrides the other. The second official is still "correct" but the call is not relevant as the ball was already dead (usually).

Now I can turn around and ask you the same questions you asked about the NCAA-W procedure - how would you be sure ego would not be involved in who takes the call? How do both officials actually agree which happened first, when they have seen, and signaled, two different things? How can you be absolutely certain the call that's finally made is the correct call, and that one team didn't get hosed?

My point is, every objection you've given to the NCAA-W procedure can be used here. In other words, it's the officials' job to determine which event happened first, and then to make the correct call, not based on ego, or whether there was one foot in someone's primary, etc. That has been, and always will be, the procedure for a double whistle, where two officials have a different view of the same play.

What bothers me about the blarge rule is the fact this one particular double-whistle is treated differently. You cannot, by all of the applicable rules involving contact, have both a player-control and a defensive foul happen at exactly the same time. It's one or the other. Unfortunately, one official is wrong in their assessment of the play. The same thing can be said about the foul/travel situation - if the foul happend first and caused the travel, the official that signaled the violation would be wrong, since no travel violation can occur when the ball is dead. So, one official would have to "overrule" another to get the call correct. It happens. You wouldn't call both in that situation, so likewise, you shouldn't call both in a block/charge.

Again, the two officials would get together and make the correct call in any other double-whistle situation. In this case, their hands are tied and one team will be charged with a foul that they didn't otherwise deserve, only because the officials didn't do their job properly. In NCAA-W, the two officials get to come together to get the call correct, instead of charging one team with a foul they didn't earn or deserve, simply due to officials not following proper mechanics.

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE=M&M Guy;694899]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Now I can turn around and ask you the same questions you asked about the NCAA-W procedure - how would you be sure ego would not be involved in who takes the call? How do both officials actually agree which happened first, when they have seen, and signaled, two different things? How can you be absolutely certain the call that's finally made is the correct call, and that one team didn't get hosed?

My point is, every objection you've given to the NCAA-W procedure can be used here. In other words, it's the officials' job to determine which event happened first, and then to make the correct call, not based on ego, or whether there was one foot in someone's primary, etc. That has been, and always will be, the procedure for a double whistle, where two officials have a different view of the same play.

What bothers me about the blarge rule is the fact this one particular double-whistle is treated differently. You cannot, by all of the applicable rules involving contact, have both a player-control and a defensive foul happen at exactly the same time. It's one or the other. Unfortunately, one official is wrong in their assessment of the play. The same thing can be said about the foul/travel situation - if the foul happend first and caused the travel, the official that signaled the violation would be wrong, since no travel violation can occur when the ball is dead. So, one official would have to "overrule" another to get the call correct. It happens. You wouldn't call both in that situation, so likewise, you shouldn't call both in a block/charge.

Again, the two officials would get together and make the correct call in any other double-whistle situation. In this case, their hands are tied and one team will be charged with a foul that they didn't otherwise deserve, only because the officials didn't do their job properly. In NCAA-W, the two officials get to come together to get the call correct, instead of charging one team with a foul they didn't earn or deserve, simply due to officials not following proper mechanics.

You were doing fine until the red high-lighted statement. There is still no guarantee under Wimmens rules that you ARE going to get the call CORRECT. All you are doing is agreeing on the call, correct or not. It's a problem under ALL rulesets with double whistles. The only person that really knows whether the call is correct or not is maybe someone who is evaluating the game. And even then, that conclusion is subjective.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Now I can turn around and ask you the same questions you asked about the NCAA-W procedure - how would you be sure ego would not be involved in who takes the call? How do both officials actually agree which happened first, when they have seen, and signaled, two different things? How can you be absolutely certain the call that's finally made is the correct call, and that one team didn't get hosed?

Sure, egos could sway the result but the same can still happen in the NCAA-W situation where each official could swear that the foul happened in their primary. You haven't differentiated the NCAA-W here. Their rule is still subject to the those issues.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

What bothers me about the blarge rule is the fact this one particular double-whistle is treated differently.

That is because it is fundamentally different.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You cannot, by all of the applicable rules involving contact, have both a player-control and a defensive foul happen at exactly the same time.

(well, you actually can, but that is not the play we're discussing)

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

It's one or the other. Unfortunately, one official is wrong in their assessment of the play. The same thing can be said about the foul/travel situation - if the foul happened first and caused the travel, the official that signaled the violation would be wrong, since no travel violation can occur when the ball is dead.

This is where you're making the error. Neither official's call was wrong. Both observed a different act and ruled accordingly...and until a whistle was blown, neither could possibly know that the ball was no longer live. Only the timing of the whistles led to the need to determine which came first. The small amount of lag necessary in seeing and whistling an infraction will always create a small window of opportunity for a double whistle on two independent events. The ball is effectively retroactively dead to the point of the first infraction.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, one official would have to "overrule" another to get the call correct. It happens. You wouldn't call both in that situation, so likewise, you shouldn't call both in a block/charge.

Not at all, no one is saying the other call is wrong at all, just that a differnet action makes it irrelevant...not wrong.

The block/charge situation is just fundamentally different....two opinions of one event....not two events.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Again, the two officials would get together and make the correct call in any other double-whistle situation. In this case, their hands are tied and one team will be charged with a foul that they didn't otherwise deserve, only because the officials didn't do their job properly. In NCAA-W, the two officials get to come together to get the call correct, instead of charging one team with a foul they didn't earn or deserve, simply due to officials not following proper mechanics.

Maybe get it correct some of the time. If it was that clear, there other official wouldn't have made the call they made. Odds of getting it right in the NCAA-W are probably about 50%....maybe a little more....but there is a non-insignificant number of times it would be wrong with a double whammy.