Blarge administration

[doubleringer]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

When are NCAAM and the NFHS going to follow the NCAAW and not allow a change to be called? The two calling officials must get together and decide whos call it is and make one call. Make one coach mad...not two.

Couldn't agree more!! Give it up to the primary and move on.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

Couldn't agree more!! Give it up to the primary and move on.

And who's primary is it in if both players have one foot in each area and are moving along the dividing line of the two area?

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And who's primary is it in if both players have one foot in each area and are moving along the dividing line of the two area?

That is why you get together and talk about it, that is why you cover this during your pregame. I think to give it up to the officials whos area it is coming out of.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And who's primary is it in if both players have one foot in each area and are moving along the dividing line of the two area?

True, its best to come together... even better to hold prelims!

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

That is why you get together and talk about it, that is why you cover this during your pregame. I think to give it up to the officials whos area it is coming out of.

I hear this alot too, but who has the best look at the status of the secondary defenders LGP?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

That is why you get together and talk about it, that is why you cover this during your pregame. I think to give it up to the officials who's area it is coming out of.

Nice parrot line....None of what you said addresses the play as I presented it.

Pregame has NOTHING to do with how you ultimately resolve this situation.

If the player is coming along the line separating the two areas (and the player received the ball in that location), just who's area is it in and who's area is it actually coming from?

The point is that the NCAA-W rule has holes in it...there are situations that it still doesn't resolve.

The officials STILL have to agree about exactly where the foul occurred to determine who's primary it was in....and some plays will be in both.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Nice parrot line....None of what you said addresses the play as I presented it.

Pregame has NOTHING to do with how you ultimately resolve this situation.

If the player is coming along the line separating the two areas (and the player received the ball in that location), just who's area is it in and who's area is it actually coming from?

The point is that the NCAA-W rule has holes in it...there are situations that it still doesn't resolve.

The officials STILL have to agree about exactly where the foul occurred to determine who's primary it was in....and some plays will be in both.

Camron - what "holes" are you talking about in the NCAA-W mechanic? How do you handle ANY double-whistle situation? How about a double whistle where one official has a foul, and the other official signals a travel? And the play happened in a dual-coverage area? How does a crew handle that in NCAA-M or NFHS, vs. the NCAA-W rule and mechanic on a blarge?

Pre-gaming these plays is the BEST way to determine how they will be resolved on the court. And the blarge is no different than any other double-whistle situation where two officials have different calls.

To me, the double foul call on a blarge is simply a cop-out call, and there is absolutley no rule basis behind it. However, I understand the reason for the call is because officials still do not always use the proper mechanics, so when they don't in this case, both teams get penalized. It's not fair to one of the teams, but perhaps that's the penalty for an official screwing up. No different than correctable error situations or timing errors - we can argue all day whether the rule book solutions are "fair" to one team or another, but perhaps the rule committees decided they would make these solutions purposely "not fair" in order to make sure officials don't screw up so often.

The double foul penalty on the blarge is in the rule in NFHS and NCAA-M, so that is how it needs to be enforced. If a crew is mechanically sound, it will never happen, just like a correctable error will never happen to a crew that follows all the prescribed mechaincs. But, if a blarge does happen, the NCAA-W rule is still the best way, overall rule-wise, to handle it, just like any other double-whistle situation.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

The double foul penalty on the blarge is in the rule in NFHS and NCAA-M, so that is how it needs to be enforced. If a crew is mechanically sound, it will never happen, just like a correctable error will never happen to a crew that follows all the prescribed mechaincs. But, if a blarge does happen, the NCAA-W rule is still the best way, overall rule-wise, to handle it, just like any other double-whistle situation.

And you feel that way because you work that level. I am OK with that, but that does not mean the rest of us or anyone that does not work that level has to agree that is the best way. Because as Cameron said, that philosophy has holes in it. I admit that a blarge is not ideal for anyone, but at least you are not arbitrarily choosing who gets the call. Because one of the blarges I have had in my career was in transition in the middle of the court. There was no "primary" at least listed. At least we followed a hard fast rule. The NCAAW side seems like we might decide based on the ego of the individuals rather than just a hard fast rule. And just like a correctable error there is no wiggle room how to solve the problem. The NCAAW side created a lot of wiggle room if you ask me.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And just like a correctable error there is no wiggle room how to solve the problem.

I kinda like having wiggle room when solving problems.

But, hey, I farm for a living. My whole life is wiggle room.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And you feel that way because you work that level. I am OK with that, but that does not mean the rest of us or anyone that does not work that level has to agree that is the best way. Because as Cameron said, that philosophy has holes in it. I admit that a blarge is not ideal for anyone, but at least you are not arbitrarily choosing who gets the call. Because one of the blarges I have had in my career was in transition in the middle of the court. There was no "primary" at least listed. At least we followed a hard fast rule. The NCAAW side seems like we might decide based on the ego of the individuals rather than just a hard fast rule. And just like a correctable error there is no wiggle room how to solve the problem. The NCAAW side created a lot of wiggle room if you ask me.

Peace

I'm not sure what "holes" you and Camron are talking about, especially compared to how other double-whistle situations are handled.

Here's my main complaint about this rule - the NFHS and NCAA-M handle this one particular double-whistle situation differently than any other double-whistle situation. As I asked Camron, how would you handle this: in a dual-coverage area, you blow your whistle for a foul, and you partner blows their whistle for a travel. (Or, for that matter, pick any other double-whistle situation where you and your partner have different calls.) How do you handle that? I don't think you would come out and say "Since we both had a whistle, we're going to penalize both the travel and the foul". Of course not; you either get together and come out with one call (whose primary?), or perhaps one official steps up strongly and says "I've got it, it's mine." Is there "wiggle room" in that procedure? I guess so. Is one call made because of ego? Perhaps. But that's how double-whistles are normally handled. Until we get to this one particular double-whistle situation: the blarge. Why not handle it the same way as any other double-whistle?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Nice parrot line....None of what you said addresses the play as I presented it.

Pregame has NOTHING to do with how you ultimately resolve this situation.

If the player is coming along the line separating the two areas (and the player received the ball in that location), just who's area is it in and who's area is it actually coming from?

The point is that the NCAA-W rule has holes in it...there are situations that it still doesn't resolve.

The officials STILL have to agree about exactly where the foul occurred to determine who's primary it was in....and some plays will be in both.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Camron - what "holes" are you talking about in the NCAA-W mechanic?

When the players are straddling two primaries and is moving in a direction that is neither toward or away from either one, who's call is it?

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

How do you handle ANY double-whistle situation? How about a double whistle where one official has a foul, and the other official signals a travel? And the play happened in a dual-coverage area? How does a crew handle that in NCAA-M or NFHS, vs. the NCAA-W rule and mechanic on a blarge?

Easy...ALL other double whistles involve TWO different events. You decided which happened first and penalize accordingly. The blarge is ONE single event....neither could happen before the other....with two different opinions about what happened. It is a matter of deciding which person is right...or not.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Pre-gaming these plays is the BEST way to determine how they will be resolved on the court. And the blarge is no different than any other double-whistle situation where two officials have different calls.

How does pregaming decide where a play will happen on the court? That is the problem, not that you'll yield to the primary.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

To me, the double foul call on a blarge is simply a cop-out call, and there is absolutely no rule basis behind it. However, I understand the reason for the call is because officials still do not always use the proper mechanics, so when they don't in this case, both teams get penalized. It's not fair to one of the teams, but perhaps that's the penalty for an official screwing up.

Actually, I feel the NCAA-W method is the cop-out. NCAA-W rules arbitrarily determine who is getting the foul based on whether their foot was 6 inches on one side of an invisible line or the other....not based on the actions of the players. The official who got it wrong just as well could be the one the NCAA-W rules defer to.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But, if a blarge does happen, the NCAA-W rule is still the best way, overall rule-wise, to handle it, just like any other double-whistle situation.

I disagree. At least with the double foul, you don't end up tagging the person/team with foul that deserved it least while the other person/team gets no penalty. It should either be both or neither.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

When the players are straddling two primaries and is moving in a direction that is neither toward or away from either one, who's call is it?

Camron, before I take the time to reply to your other statements, you still have not answered my question about other double-whistle situations: How should officials handle ANY double-whistle? How about when they each have a different call? Perhaps one has a violation, while the other has a foul, or each official has a foul on a different player; whose call is it? Perhaps the players are straddling the two primaries, as you mention above - you tell me: whose call is it?

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Nice parrot line....None of what you said addresses the play as I presented it.

Pregame has NOTHING to do with how you ultimately resolve this situation.

If the player is coming along the line separating the two areas (and the player received the ball in that location), just who's area is it in and who's area is it actually coming from?

The point is that the NCAA-W rule has holes in it...there are situations that it still doesn't resolve.

The officials STILL have to agree about exactly where the foul occurred to determine who's primary it was in....and some plays will be in both.

Nothing is perfect...but IMO it is better than a blarge and a double foul.

[constable]

Blarges drive me nuts. Call your primary. Give up the call if it's a drive going away from you into the other official's primary. Raise your hand with a clinched fist. Eye contact on double whistle. Determine which foul came first and ignore the other one,unless flagrant or intentional.

How tough is that?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by constable

Blarges drive me nuts. Call your primary. Give up the call if it's a drive going away from you into the other official's primary. Raise your hand with a clinched fist. Eye contact on double whistle. Determine which foul came first and ignore the other one,unless flagrant or intentional.

How tough is that?

I never thought it was hard until a partner and I had a blarge last season in a juco mens game. 23 years and it was a first. Hopefully, it will be the only one.

I was the lead and the foul happened right in front of me in the lower half of the center of the lane. Not sure why the T jumped in on it, to be honest -- it was a no-brainer block, too, as a secondary defender slid under an airborne shooter. Partner sold it so poorly I didn't even realize he had called anything until it was too late. I'm not sure I would've ceded to his charge call had I seen it -- it was the wrong call made by the wrong official -- why should he get that wrong call to stick just cause he's quicker to the gun? The C came to me during a timeout and told me it was probably the easiest block to call and somehow the T got it wrong.

In an NCAAW game, I would've been able to have the right call (a block), but I actually liked how the rule tied my hands and left both coaches grumbly rather than one happy and the other seething. After a quick explanation, we had the ball back in play and the whole thing quickly forgotten. Till the locker room, of course.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And who's primary is it in if both players have one foot in each area and are moving along the dividing line of the two area?

Anything is better than having to call a double foul!