New Elbow Rule

[Judtech]

I know we discussed this a few threads ago, but the NCAA has come out with new elbow penalty's. We are told that these new penalty's DO NOT pertain to whether the play is a foul or not , but on how to administer the penalty. This has provided a whole bunch of "what if's..." Feel free to add your own. The rules aren't printed so here is the cliff notes version:
Elbow above the neck = Foul (pretty basic)
MOVING elbow that makes contact above the neck = Intentional
EXCESSIVE elbow that makes contact above the neck = Flagrant

If we deem contact incidental (marginal) then nothing changes. However, if we deem there has been an elbow to a player above the neck, we now have to determine if it was stationary, moving and/or excessive. The ability to "upgrade", but not "downgrade", is available via video. Providing information to your partners on severity is encouraged. I have a sneaking suspicion there will be a lot of in season memo's regarding clarification of this new standard.

[Raymond]

If I remember correctly I thought this was already in effect last season.

[Judtech]

Sorry. This is a new NCAA - W thing. Not sure if it was on the Men's side or not.

[CLH]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If I remember correctly I thought this was already in effect last season.

You remember incorrectly, there was no such rule last season. Which, is why the original post gave the "cliff notes" version, because there is no rule yet regarding these new guidelines.

Sorry!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by CLH

You remember incorrectly, there was no such rule last season. Which, is why the original post gave the "cliff notes" version, because there is no rule yet regarding these new guidelines.

Sorry!

I didn't say rule

I thought John Adams spoke to this last year in pre-season video. Or maybe something came out during the season?

Just seems to me I heard something on this already. Of course I am getting old so that could also be the problem.

[CLH]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I didn't say rule

I thought John Adams spoke to this last year in pre-season video. Or maybe something came out during the season?

Just seems to me I heard something on this already. Of course I am getting old so that could also be the problem.

OHHHHHH! See here's our problem...He must have spoken about applying a rule that doesn't exist...surprise! Over here on the NCAA-W side, we only deal in what's actually IN the rulebook...My mistake...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Judtech

we now have to determine if it was stationary, moving and/or excessive.

How does a "stationary" elbow cause a foul?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

How does a "stationary" elbow cause a foul?

On a screen, when it's extended beyond the normal/accepted range?

[curlingrocks]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

How does a "stationary" elbow cause a foul?

If I am setting a pick and have my elbows extending out (chicken wing) they can be stationary but still be a foul.



The main thing that has been stressed all summer is that this rule does not change what a foul is, it simply changes the penalty associated with what has always been a foul. If there is contact this year and last year we would not have called it a foul, it is still not a foul this year.

However, we no longer have the choice to enforce certain types of fouls depending if the elbow was moving and where the contact occurred. If we have a play where a player gets hit with a moving elbow, above the neck, and it is a foul (remember, the foul has not changed from last year), it HAS to be intentional (unless it is deemed excessive or flagrant). There is no choice...

Also, Debbie has stressed that the contact has to be with the elbow, not the bicep, not the forearm, but the pointy, bony thing that sticks out from your arm.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

How does a "stationary" elbow cause a foul?

I was going to post that. So ... now you can crash into someone else's unmoving elbow and draw a foul. Nice!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by curlingrocks

If I am setting a pick and have my elbows extending out (chicken wing) they can be stationary but still be a foul... the contact has to be with the elbow, not the bicep, not the forearm, but the pointy, bony thing that sticks out from your arm.

That's insane. How in the world can a person hit the pointy part of the elbow on a player setting a pick?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

That's insane. How in the world can a person hit the pointy part of the elbow on a player setting a pick?

Seems pretty obvious to me how that can happen, and I'm not the most imaginitive person in the world.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

That's insane. How in the world can a person hit the pointy part of the elbow on a player setting a pick?

It's not as hard as you think; not all picks are set with the screener facing the screened player. Also, even when they are, sometimes the screener sticks his/her elbows up. It's not common, but it's possible.
one other possibility:
A1 sets a screen on B1, and sticks his elbows out to the side in the process to make himself wider.
After his elbows are up and in place, B2 comes around from behind and runs smack into A1's elbow with his nose. A1's elbow was stationary, but illegal.

[mbyron]

Stationary players can be guilty of fouls. Last season I called one on a big kid in the middle of the floor, and he was dumbfounded because he'd been stock still for about 4 seconds before the dribbler tripped over his foot.

Of course, his feet were about 6 feet apart at the time...

(And, to the wiseass who asks me whether his shoulders were 6 feet wide, the answer is "no." )

[icallfouls]

Discussion started last year about elbows and the situations that might develop.

My biggest problem with it, is that when one of the bigs sets a screen or gets a rebound with a smaller player in the area and there is contact. An elbow from the bigs is 99.99% of the time going to come in contact above the neck of the shorter player. It places undue burden on the taller player to avoid contact with the shorter player.

Part of the problem has been that smaller players swipe at the arms of the taller players and officials don't protect the bigger players because they are expected to play through it. It really puts taller players at a disadvantage when a smaller player tries swipe at a ball from the blind side or from below.

While I understand the intent, let us continue to use the previous guidelines for swinging elbows for another season before implementing the more highly subjective levels of contact.

In the end, we will do what we gotta do