Question @Drive to the Basket

[Da Official]

When you are the T and a drive begins from your primary and the defender has his arm in the offensive players back all the way to the basket (offensive player seems to play through the contact) and then the defender makes questionable contact with the offensive player on the shot (offensive player misses shot):

(Obviously you had to have been there but

1. As a good official how do you properly officiate this play?

2. Do you let the hand check go and call the shooting foul on the questionable contact taking everything together?

"Questionable contact" here is contact you probably wouldn't put a whistle on if it occurred by itself (and not after riding the player down the lane).

3. Do you call the hand check before the shot?

4. Do you call nothing?

5. Does it matter that the score is tied with 10 seconds left in the game?


This play happened to me last weekend at a college camp...I called a foul on the shot. I felt good about calling a foul, but I don't feel 100% sure at what point I should have called the foul and which foul I should have went with. The hand check or "questionable contact" by themselves I probably would have passed on but taken together I like the call.

6. Can I even take both into consideration together??

So asking the forum.....so I can get better. Thx!

[mbyron]

I think you're making too much of this. An "arm in the back" sounds like a foul to me. Get it when you see it, and don't worry that 3 steps later he starts his shooting motion.

If you wait, you're saying the arm in the back was incidental. In that case, call the shooting foul and ignore the incidental contact. Contact is not additive.

If you make the right call, the game situation is irrelevant IMO.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Da Official

5. Does it matter that the score is tied with 10 seconds left in the game?

Why would you think this situation would matter on how you would make any call? If it's a foul, call it. If not, don't. Period.

[Da Official]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Why would you think this situation would matter on how you would make any call? If it's a foul, call it. If not, don't. Period.

Mark, I am of the philiosphy score and time is irrelevant and a foul is a foul but I've seen plays at the end of tied ball games that do not get a whistle on so I guess the game can be settled in OT. I just threw the question out there to get feedback...I know I'm not the only one who has ever seen a play like that...?

[jeffpea]

imho, contact falls into one of three catagories:

incidental
marginal
contact that warrants a foul

sounds to me like the initial contact you've described is either incidental or marginal (it certainly was not contact that warranted a foul). a good official should see the start, development, and finish of the play...THEN decide if you have a foul. the higher the level of play, the more i believe you need to hold your whistle before blowing (or not blowing).

at the NCAA level, John Adams has said if contact initiated by the defender interrupts the rhythm, speed, balance, or quickness (RSBQ) of the offensive player...it IS a foul. your description does not meet that standard.

as for the "questionable contact on the shot", i don't think i have a foul either (at least not as you've described).

mbyron is right - contact is not additive.

i am certainly NOT going to call a foul in the last :10 of a game if the contact is "questionable".

hope that helps...

[Camron Rust]

Let the play develop and finish. If the offensive player is able to play through it and get to the point of the shot, why stop the play? The offensive player was able to get to the spot they desired with the defender left trailing the play. The offensive player was, since they were able to beat their opponent, not disadvantaged by the contact. Calling that foul takes 2 points away from the offensive team. It may even take 3 points away if the player continues to push during the shot (vs. the ball OOB)....a much better time to call it if it needs to be called.


If, on the other other hand, the contact slowed down the offensive player such that their opportunity to shoot was eliminated or made distinctly more difficult, that contact becomes a foul.

I try to anticipate what the offensive player/team really wants to do (score). If my whistle will prevent that, then it is not a good call.

[SWMOzebra]

Originally Posted by Da Official

This play happened to me last weekend at a college camp...I called a foul on the shot.

Did your evaluators question you about this call?

[GoodwillRef]

This sure sounds like a hand check the entire way...call the foul when it happens and you will clean up the game for you and your partners. This is why hand checking has been a POE for so many years in NFHS...we don't call it. In NCAAW we used to let this play finish and call an And 1 if the shot was made...over the past few years we went back to calling it right away to clean up the game.

[Da Official]

Originally Posted by SWMOzebra

Did your evaluators question you about this call?

No offiicial questioned the call. When I discussed with the Lead he thought it was a good call since the defensive player "rode him" all the way down the lane.

Also to clear up another post, the defender had his hand on the the offensive player on the drive and when the offensive player left the floor for a layup the defender jumped from the side of A1 to make the questionable contact (I'm providing this info to show the defensive player wasn't really trailing the play).

Thanks for the feedback thus far!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Why would you think this situation would matter on how you would make any call? If it's a foul, call it. If not, don't. Period.

Someone has inhabited Mark's keyboard. Did you miss the part about the game being tied?

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Let the play develop and finish. If the offensive player is able to play through it and get to the point of the shot, why stop the play? The offensive player was able to get to the spot they desired with the defender left trailing the play. The offensive player was, since they were able to beat their opponent, not disadvantaged by the contact. Calling that foul takes 2 points away from the offensive team. It may even take 3 points away if the player continues to push during the shot (vs. the ball OOB)....a much better time to call it if it needs to be called.


If, on the other other hand, the contact slowed down the offensive player such that their opportunity to shoot was eliminated or made distinctly more difficult, that contact becomes a foul.

I try to anticipate what the offensive player/team really wants to do (score). If my whistle will prevent that, then it is not a good call.

This explanation is exactly what my mentor shared with me when I asked the same question a few weeks ago.

Furthermore, I was instructed to utilize the "push" signal a majority of the time that I see a "hand check". Mainly because, if I'm going to go get that "hand check" it had better be because the defender actually altered the speed and course of the ball handler...which is probably best described/explained as a "push".

This doesn't mean "hand checks" don't happen or aren't legit calls - just that they can be viewed as a weak call in many situations and make it even more difficult for a crew to "call it the same on both ends".

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Da Official

Also to clear up another post, the defender had his hand on the the offensive player on the drive and when the offensive player left the floor for a layup the defender jumped from the side of A1 to make the questionable contact (I'm providing this info to show the defensive player wasn't really trailing the play).

Thanks for the feedback thus far!

Behind or to the side....it doesn't really matter. It doesn't change the point of my post....did the contact negatively impact the offensive player's ability to make the play he wanted to make? If not, no foul. That doesn't necessarily mean that A1 doesn't have to work just a bit more to keep his advantageous position and complete the play.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Someone has inhabited Mark's keyboard. Did you miss the part about the game being tied?

In that situation, you're going to be able to call a T on the coach who doesn't "get" the call for his reaction, in which case you will keep having lane violations on free throw misses. Sheesh - isn't it obvious?

BTW - in the 3rd and 4th grade levels of our local rec league, we have ties all the time (usually something like 6-6 or 8-8) but we don't have overtimes. The game is just declared a tie. I think I might suggest making this an NF rule.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by DLH17

This explanation is exactly what my mentor shared with me when I asked the same question a few weeks ago.

Furthermore, I was instructed to utilize the "push" signal a majority of the time that I see a "hand check". Mainly because, if I'm going to go get that "hand check" it had better be because the defender actually altered the speed and course of the ball handler...which is probably best described/explained as a "push".

This doesn't mean "hand checks" don't happen or aren't legit calls - just that they can be viewed as a weak call in many situations and make it even more difficult for a crew to "call it the same on both ends".

What? If it is a hand check signal a hand check. This is a great example why kids keep playing with their hands and not moving their feet. When I have a hand check I make sure everyone know I have one. I want to make sure the ball handler is not getting mugged, held, or re-routed by the defender. Call the handcheck...it is not a push...a push is a push. When I follow you two nights later and have the same team and I call the rule (hand checks) the way it is supposed to be called I am the one catching crap because you are doing your job correctly.

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

What? If it is a hand check signal a hand check. This is a great example why kids keep playing with their hands and not moving their feet. When I have a hand check I make sure everyone know I have one. I want to make sure the ball handler is not getting mugged, held, or re-routed by the defender. Call the handcheck...it is not a push...a push is a push. When I follow you two nights later and have the same team and I call the rule (hand checks) the way it is supposed to be called I am the one catching crap because you are doing your job correctly.

Most of the time, I'll tell a player to "keep your hands off and move your feet" when defending above the FT line extended (not driving to the bucket) in the early going and this is where I will more than likely call a "hand check" if the player doesn't immediately drop the hands. It's the drive to the bucket where the odds of me using a "hand check" signal will give way to the "push" signal.