rebound, pass

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Absolutely, IF he is dribbling.

You may be confusing the definitions of the terms dribble and pass with the generally accepted meanings, and intent of the player. A pass, by rule, is to another player. The fact that you even used quotes to call it a "pass" when the same player retrieved it shows you have the rule confused with intent. If A1 releases the ball, even with the obvious intent that it's towards a teammate, and still ends up going to get the ball because the teammate doesn't see it coming, it is simply not a pass, according to the rules. There is even a recent case play or interp that states that very concept, and even states it is considered a dribble after A1 retrieves it.

The same with a dribble - don't confuse the "generally accepted action" of bouncing the ball straight up and down from the hand about waist high down to the floor, with the definition of a dribble. The ball doesn't have to go in a direct line from the hand to the floor, but can even go up in the air, as long as it's allowed to hit the ground before being touched again (4-15-2). There are several case plays that support the idea that a dribble is not limited to only bouncing the ball straight up and down.

That's what JR and I are saying - in the OP, it wasn't a pass, by rule, because the ball didn't go to another player. It wasn't a fumble, because there wasn't accidental loss of control (as per another definition, 4-21). It wasn't a try. So that makes the player's action a dribble, by rule. And thus, you can make a determination of whether an action is legal or not based on dribble and travelling rules.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You may be confusing the definitions of the terms dribble and pass with the generally accepted meanings, and intent of the player. A pass, by rule, is to another player. The fact that you even used quotes to call it a "pass" when the same player retrieved it shows you have the rule confused with intent.

I may have confused some of you with my "pass" notation. The quotes basically said "for the the lack of a better word," but I know it's wrong.

The ball doesn't have to go in a direct line from the hand to the floor, but can even go up in the air, as long as it's allowed to hit the ground before being touched again (4-15-2)

Actually, that's my point, and it's all about the definition, not the general acceptance. My understanding of the OP was that ball was never allowed to hit the floor, so it wouldn't meet the definition of a dribble, either. If it hits the floor, that's a different story.

in the OP, it wasn't a pass.... It wasn't a fumble.... It wasn't a try.... So that makes the player's action a dribble, by rule.

So, if it's not A, nor B, nor C, then it must be D, even though the action doesn't meet the definition of D? Is there a rule the cites this?

I wonder if my boss would mind if I took some additional bookshelf space for more basketball-related items?

I've wondered that myself. For now, I keep mine in a desk drawer.

Aside to Nevada: Do you have that recent case in question? That may put this whole argument to bed.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Actually, that's my point, and it's all about the definition, not the general acceptance. In the OP, the ball was never allowed to hit the ground, so it doesn't meet the definition of a dribble, either.

That's the problem. The ball was released. It was not a pass, a fumble, or a try, so it is a dribble. It was touched a second time before it touched the floor, so it is a violation.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by just another ref

That's the problem. The ball was released. It was not a pass, a fumble, or a try, so it is a dribble. It was touched a second time before it touched the floor, so it is a violation.

We agree it's a violation (and perhaps that's good enough for 99% of us), but I maintain it can't be an illegal dribble, because the definition of dribble wasn't met in the first place. You can't have an illegal anything unless the definition of the "anything" is satisfied. (For example, there's no illegal contact without contact.)

Yes, touching the ball twice is indeed illegal while dribbling. Looking at that, let's say A-1 stands flat footed, tosses the ball up with his left hand, and while remaining flat-footed, catches the ball with his right. Is this a violation? Is this an illegal dribble? The ball was touched twice before hitting floor, but I say no violation, and certainly not an illegal dribble. The touched-twice rule only works when the dribble has begun.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

If it's not 4-15, then what rule would you use to govern the ball movement/play as described?

I don't have a 2009-10 rule/case book handy, but perhaps 4.15.4 Sit E (b) calls it a travel, because the player moved from one spot on the floor to another, touching it in two different spots, and never truly started the dribble. Using the same logic, if it's not a dribble, nor a pass, nor a try, etc., then it can only be a travel.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bainsey

We agree it's a violation (and perhaps that's good enough for 99% of us), but I maintain it can't be an illegal dribble, because the definition of dribble wasn't met in the first place. You can't have an illegal anything unless the definition of the "anything" is satisfied. (For example, there's no illegal contact without contact.)

You have it backwards.

If you don't meet the definition of "anything" you have performed an illegal "anything". If you met the definition of an "anything", that, by definition, means it was legal.

You can have either legal contact or illegal contact, however. Illegal contact is contact that is not don't within the legal range of contact.

An illegal dribble is an action that, in most ways, fits the act of a legal dribble but has some element that does not....making it an illegal dribble. (Or is a drible at a time when it is not permitted---after the player has already dribbled). It just so happens that we give one of them a specific name (carry/palm) even though it doesn't need on since it is really the ending an restarting of a 2nd dribble.

Originally Posted by bainsey

Yes, touching the ball twice is indeed illegal while dribbling. Looking at that, let's say A-1 stands flat footed, tosses the ball up with his left hand, and while remaining flat-footed, catches the ball with his right. Is this a violation? Is this an illegal dribble? The ball was touched twice before hitting floor, but I say no violation, and certainly not an illegal dribble. The touched-twice rule only works when the dribble has begun.

And I think that is why the referenced case play was changed to traveling instead of an illegal dribble.....that the movement of the feet is the defining factor.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you don't meet the definition of "anything" you have performed an illegal "anything".

Incorrect, sir. By this logic, a pass would be an illegal dribble, because the action doesn't meet the definition of a dribble.

You can't have illegal contact without contact first. You can't have an illegal use of hands without a use of hands. The "anything" must occur first for the action to be deemed illegal.

If you met the definition of an "anything", that, by definition, means it was legal.

Illegal actions are also defined. Rule 9-5 spells out an illegal dribble.

Meeting the definition is a prerequisite for determining whether an action was legal or illegal.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Incorrect, sir. By this logic, a pass would be an illegal dribble, because the action doesn't meet the definition of a dribble.

A pass is a pass when it touches another player. You have lost me here.

Illegal actions are also defined. Rule 9-5 spells out an illegal dribble.

9-5 could also use some work. According to 9-5, the only violation is to start another dribble after the dribble ends. Yet, what we are discussing,
(touching the ball a second time before it touches the floor) is not one of the things that ends a dribble.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you don't meet the definition of "anything" you have performed an illegal "anything". If you met the definition of an "anything", that, by definition, means it was legal.

I think the name of this particular violation (illegal dribble) is confusing the issue. You say that you cannot have an illegal dribble without first having a dribble. Consider other violations.

You cannot have traveling without first having a ______???

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You cannot have traveling without first having a ______???

carry on bag?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by bainsey

We agree it's a violation (and perhaps that's good enough for 99% of us), but I maintain it can't be an illegal dribble, because the definition of dribble wasn't met in the first place. You can't have an illegal anything unless the definition of the "anything" is satisfied. (For example, there's no illegal contact without contact.)

Huh?

4-15-1: "A dribble is ball movement (check) caused by a player in control (check) who bats or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times."

4-15-2: "During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)." This is where the OP violated. If the ball had hit the floor, then all of the points in 4-15-1 would have been met, and therefore it would be a dribble.

Originally Posted by bainsey

Yes, touching the ball twice is indeed illegal while dribbling. Looking at that, let's say A-1 stands flat footed, tosses the ball up with his left hand, and while remaining flat-footed, catches the ball with his right. Is this a violation? Is this an illegal dribble?

Already covered exactly under 4.15.4 Sit E (a). It is not a violation because the pivot foot has never been lifted.

Originally Posted by bainsey

I don't have a 2009-10 rule/case book handy, but perhaps 4.15.4 Sit E (b) calls it a travel, because the player moved from one spot on the floor to another, touching it in two different spots, and never truly started the dribble. Using the same logic, if it's not a dribble, nor a pass, nor a try, etc., then it can only be a travel.

Actually, in the 2006-07 case book, it is listed as a dribble violation. It was subsequentially changed to be a traveling violation, but count me as one of the ones who doesn't understand why. It is a rule fundamental that a player cannot travel during a dribble.

So, let's say we call it that A1 "threw the ball somewhere", instead of calling it a dribble. There's 4.15.4 Sit C: "After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball: (a) against the opponent's backboard and catches the rebound, or (b) against an official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against an opponent's backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is the first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board." Again, another example of how the rule definition of dribble doesn't necessarily follow the accepted action of simply bouncing the ball on the floor, but it certainly includes that action.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

That's the problem. The ball was released. It was not a pass, a fumble, or a try, so it is a dribble. It was touched a second time before it touched the floor, so it is a violation.

Yup.

And if the ball was released, rule 4-15-3 now applies....The dribble may be STARTED by pushing throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted." Anything that happens after the ball leaves the hand(s) on that dribble start now falls into "during the dribble". And the ball was then touched twice during one dribble, which is a violation.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Actually, that's my point, and it's all about the definition, not the general acceptance. In the OP, the ball was never allowed to hit the ground, so it doesn't meet the definition of a dribble, either.

Actually, it meets the definition of an illegal dribble. See jar's response above.

Originally Posted by bainsey

So, if it's not A, nor B, nor C, then it must be D, even though the action doesn't meet the definition of D? Is there a rule the cites this?

Yep - 4-15. If it's not 4-15, then what rule would you use to govern the ball movement/play as described?

Originally Posted by bainsey

Aside to Nevada: Do you have that recent case in question? That may put this whole argument to bed.

I believe the case play he mentions - 4.15.4 Sit E (b) - changed the original interp from a dribble violation to a traveling violation. Not many of us can figure why it's traveling, but at least we agree it's still a violation nontheless.