Please Help ...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10-3-3 tells us that a player shall not: Grasp either basket during the time of the officials’ jurisdiction, dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball prior to or during the game or during any intermission until jurisdiction of the officials has ended. This item applies to all team members.

But is there a rule that tells us that team members, other than players, and substitutes, for example, the team manager, team mascot, team trainer, team coach, team statistician, team chaplain, injured player in street clothes, injured player in uniform (whose name is in the book but won't play), etc., may not get involved in pregame warmups? I don't know.

Got to know your definitions, Billy. Bench personnel such as coaches, trainers, etc. are NOT team members, by rule.

NFHS rule 4-34.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Got to know your definitions, Billy. Bench personnel such as coaches, trainers, etc. are NOT team members, by rule.

PLAYERS/BENCH PERSONNEL/SUBSTITUTES/TEAM MEMBERS
ART. 1 A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission.
ART. 2 Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.
ART. 3 A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live. A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification.
ART. 4 A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

Is there a rule that tells us that bench personnel, other than players, and substitutes, for example, the team manager, team mascot, team trainer, team coach, team statistician, team chaplain, injured player in street clothes, injured player in uniform (whose name is in the book but won't play), etc., may not get involved in pregame warmups?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is there a rule that tells us that bench personnel, other than players, and substitutes, for example, the team manager, team mascot, team trainer, team coach, team statistician, team chaplain, injured player in street clothes, injured player in uniform (whose name is in the book but won't play), etc., may not get involved in pregame warmups?

Didn't I just ask you that?

And if one of 'em dunks, is there a rule prohibiting that also?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Didn't I just ask you that? And if one of 'em dunks, is there a rule prohibiting that also?

Yes you did. And I didn't know the answer, which is why I ended the last sentence in the post, "Is there a rule that tells us that bench personnel, other than players, and substitutes, ... may not get involved in pregame warmups?" with a question mark.

Is there such a rule that tells us who may warmup with the team, and who may not? What if the team chaplain (bench personnel) dunks during pregame warmups?

Jurassic Referee: Do you have an interpretation on this, or are you playing "devil's advocate? I know that you must, at least, have an opinion.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes you did. And I didn't know the answer, which is why I ended the last sentence in the post, "Is there a rule that tells us that bench personnel, other than players, and substitutes, ... may not get involved in pregame warmups?" with a question mark.

Is there such a rule that tells us who may warmup with the team, and who may not? What if the team chaplain (bench personnel) dunks during pregame warmups?

Jurassic Referee: Do you have an interpretation on this, or are you playing "devil's advocate? I know that you must, at least, have an opinion.

There is no rule that I know of that states who can or can't warmup. I don't think that you have any rules justification to stop bench personnel such as team trainers/statisticians from warming up with team members as long as they were legally dressed. The rules just don't cover it. I do know that there is no valid reason by rule for the R to check or do anything about the number of players warming up pre-game if that number differs with the number of players in the book. The old thread that Scrappy posted kinda alluded to that. That's why I took exception with you for including that coda in your Administrative Infraction essay.

As for dunking pre-game.....
1) I disagree completely with JAR about "T"ing up someone in uniform if that person is not a member of that team's bench personnel. I know of no rule that will allow you to assess a technical foul to someone who isn't a member of a team's bench personnel. The only rule even close imo is rule 2-8-1 which covers unsporting conduct by a team follower, and I'd be very, very careful about issuing a "T" using that rule. Just have that person removed from the court.
2) The rules related to pre-game dunking refer to players and team members only. They do not relate to other members of a team's bench personnel afaik. However, there is nowayinhell you should ever allow those bench personnel members to dunk pre-game. I doubt very much that was the purpose and intent of the no pre-game dunking rule. In that particular case, you can use the language of rule 10-4-1 which says bench personnel shall not commit an unsporting foul and also says that "this includes but is not limited to...". Iow you can call a "T" if you feel that an act is unsporting...and someone from bench personnel dunking pre-game sureasheck is committing an unsporting act imo. Note that the penalty is exactly the same as the penalty for a player/team member dunking pre-game. It's a direct "T" to the offender and an indirect "T" to the head coach.

Rules rulz! The odds are a million to 1 that you'd ever actually see in a real game what we're discussing. If by some stoopid happenchance it actually did occur though, I would just use what rules I do have and then post-game try to get a definitive ruling from my state governing body.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

As for dunking pre-game.....
1) I disagree completely with JAR about "T"ing up someone in uniform if that person is not a member of that team's bench personnel. I know of no rule that will allow you to assess a technical foul to someone who isn't a member of a team's bench personnel.

If he is in uniform and sitting with or warming up with the team, he is bench personnel.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If he is in uniform and sitting with or warming up with the team, he is bench personnel.

Yup, but that doesn't make him a player or a team member by rule. And the strict language of rule 10-3-3 applies ONLY to players and team members. NFHS rule 4-34-4 says "A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player. You are eligible to become a player when your name is added to the team member list. If the head coach doesn't put someone's name on the team member list, that someone is NOT eligible to become a player, even though that someone may be bench personnel in uniform sitting on the bench.

There is nothing in the rules that I know of that states that a coach can't have bench personnel other than his players or team members dressed in uniforms and sitting on the bench if the names of those bench personnel are NOT put on the team member list. And there is also nothing in the rules that I know of that won't allow bench personnel to warmup with their team. If you can find a citation that makes any of that illegal, please let me know.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I do know that there is no valid reason by rule for the R to check or do anything about the number of players warming up pre-game if that number differs with the number of players in the book.

By rule, you are 100% correct.

Again, that's just the way we do it around here. Not in the rulebook. Probably not in the manual. Nobody's doing anything wrong if they don't do it. It's just the way we've been doing it here in our little corner of Connecticut for, at least, the last thirty years.

Does anyone else outside my little corner of Connecticut compare the number of players warming up to the number of players listed in the scorebook? Just wondering?

[BillyMac]

NFHS 2009-11 Basketball Officials Manual
Part 2 Game Procedures – Crew Of Two (page 15)
2.1 Pregame
A. Referee’s Duties:
7. Count the number of visiting team squad members.
8. Obtain the same information from umpire regarding the home team.
9. Verify the number of team members ... in the scorebook for each team.
B. Umpire Duties:
1. Count the number of home team squad members.

I know that the NFHS doesn't suggest to us what to do if the counts don't match up, but the NFHS must want us to do all this counting for some reason? Why are we counting? I think I know, but it's only for my little corner of Connecticut. Why is the rest of the country counting? Ask the NFHS. They must know the reason.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

By rule, you are 100% correct.


Does anyone else outside my little corner of Connecticut compare the number of players warming up to the number of players listed in the scorebook? Just wondering?

I would hope that everyone does that. If you are in a 3 person crew your U1 and U2 should each be assigned a team to count players and make sure they are in "dress code". In a two person crew....need I explain. Then when the R goes to the table they should match the number they were given by their partners and what is in the book. Maybe even double check it yourself. That way if there are discrepancies, they can be sorted out before it gets REALLY interesting!

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Does anyone else outside my little corner of Connecticut compare the number of players warming up to the number of players listed in the scorebook? Just wondering?

We do in Maine, too.

I always say that the toughest part of our jobs isn't block/charge or travelling, it's counting the moving kids during warmups!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If one of 'em dunks, is there a rule prohibiting that also?

I still don't know for sure, but I'll take a stab at it.

I cannot find anything in 10-4 (Bench Personnel) that prohibits bench personnel, who are not substitutes, from dunking a dead ball prior to or during the game or during any intermission until jurisdiction of the officials has ended.

However, and I'm grasping at straws here, according to 10-4-2, bench personnel (team chaplain) shall not: Enter the court unless by permission of an official to attend an injured player.

It's a stretch, but if the team chaplain (bench personnel), comes out during warmups and dunks, the official can't charge him with a technical foul for dunking, but can charge him with a technical foul for entering the court. Of course if you believe this interpretation, then you can also use this citation to prevent the team chaplain (bench personnel), from warming up with the team.

That's the best I can come up with. I hope that someone comes up with a better answer, with some pertinent citations.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I cannot find anything in 10-4 (Bench Personnel) that prohibits bench personnel from dunking a dead ball prior to or during the game or during any intermission until jurisdiction of the officials has ended.

10-3-3: This item applies to all team members.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

If these guys are in uniform, and they report to the table during the game, what are you gonna do? Beckon them in, no matter who they are.

This means they are eligible to become players.

This means if they dunk during the warmup, it is a technical foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

10-3-3: This item applies to all team members. 4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player. If these guys are in uniform, and they report to the table during the game, what are you gonna do? Beckon them in, no matter who they are. This means they are eligible to become players. This means if they dunk during the warmup, it is a technical foul.

I was referring to Jurassic Referee's question from several posts ago, where he asked: "Can a member of bench personnel other than a team member participate in the pre-game warmup?", and, "What is the penalty if a bench member other than a team member dunks the ball in the pre-game warmup?".

To stay with my example, what happens if the team chaplain dunks during pregame warmups? From my most recent post before this, I believe that the dunking is not the illegal act. However, it is illegal for the team chaplain to enter the court unless by permission of an official to attend an injured player, so there's our technical foul, which would also prevent him from warming up with the team.

I'm hoping that someone can come up with a better interpretation, and citation than mine. There has to be some other rule reference that prevents nonunifomed bench personnel from getting in the layup line, or getting in the layup line and dunking.

And again, how about the kid from the freshman team, who hangs around, in uniform, after his late afternoon game, watches the junior varsity game from the stands, and after the junior varsity game, decides to show off and joins the layup line and jams one down during the varsity warmups? In the book? No. In uniform? Yes. Eligible to play? Probably. Technical foul? Probably. Again, I'm hoping that someone can come up with a better interpretation, and citation than mine.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

However, it is illegal for the team chaplain to enter the court unless by permission of an official to attend an injured player, so there's our technical foul, which would also prevent him from warming up with the team.

Are you kidding? Are you really saying that a team chaplain or any other member of bench personnel outside of players and team members can't go out on the floor during the pre-game warmup? A trainer couldn't come out on the court to look at a player without getting official permission first?

Don't think so, Billy. If that logic was true, you'd have to give out technical fouls to all bench personnel who came out onto the court during a timeout. Or left the bench area at half time. And we know that a head coach can legally take his team out on the court during a full timeout and into the locker room at half time.

You're reading something into the rule that was never intended.