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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 08:29pm
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Question One T or two - if one, on who?

On other recent threads, we've discussed assessing technicals to the coach, the team or to specific players for certain acts. Here's a hypothetical we can discuss.

NF rules. During a dead ball, Coach A loudly tells A1 to punch B1 in the face and you hear this. A1 does so. Do you have a flagrant technical only on Coach A, only on A1 or do you call one on each? Do you agree any foul(s) should be a flagrant?
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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 08:41pm
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Flagrant technical fouls for each.
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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 09:11pm
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Originally Posted by Mark Padgett View Post
NF rules. During a dead ball, Coach A loudly tells A1 to punch B1 in the face and you hear this.
That's a flagrant technical foul right there as soon as you heard the coach say that imo. Write complete details on the score sheet, and after the game write a report up and send it in. And you should be proactive and also warn the coach's replacement that if any player of his punches someone they will be gone immediately too.

I'd also tell the home management rep immediately as to what happened, whether it was the home or visiting coach that got tossed.

Nip it, nip it in the bud.
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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 09:36pm
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This would be different then hearing a coach swear which would be an auto "T". Until there is an actual punch in the face, I am not sure you can do anything. If there is no action, it becomes a 'he said/she said" incident. The coach could claim it is a figure of speech, or that you misheard what they said. If there was nothing else going on then just the coach yelling at his team, then that would be one thing. If that coach is on the floor and has their arm around a player and is pointing at the other teams huddle and singling out a player, then I would hit the T right there.
In the OP, I would make sure that the whole crew that something might be afoot and get us all on the same page. Since the player took the swing they would both be gone. I would make sure that our supervisor knew of the incident and I am positive we would send a letter to the school stating that unless changes were made they would have to find another organization to cover their contests.
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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 10:19pm
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That's an easy one. Flagrant technical fouls for both the player and coach. Why wouldn't one penalize both actions?
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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 10:20pm
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Flagrant techs for both.
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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 10:26pm
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Originally Posted by Judtech View Post
This would be different then hearing a coach swear which would be an auto "T". Until there is an actual punch in the face, I am not sure you can do anything. If there is no action, it becomes a 'he said/she said" incident. The coach could claim it is a figure of speech, or that you misheard what they said. If there was nothing else going on then just the coach yelling at his team, then that would be one thing. If that coach is on the floor and has their arm around a player and is pointing at the other teams huddle and singling out a player, then I would hit the T right there.
In the OP, I would make sure that the whole crew that something might be afoot and get us all on the same page. Since the player took the swing they would both be gone. I would make sure that our supervisor knew of the incident and I am positive we would send a letter to the school stating that unless changes were made they would have to find another organization to cover their contests.
When I assess a Flagrant T I never take into consideration what a coach might claim afterwards before doing so. Additionally the coaches flagrant act stands on its own. It does not become flagrant because the order was carried out.

Using your own thinking Why are they both gone if the player swings? If you couldn't prove the coach gave the command when you first heard it, you can not prove it later either. Besides, if you wait until command is carried out before punishing the coach what makes you think he won't still use the same arguments you mentioned.
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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 10:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judtech View Post
This would be different then hearing a coach swear which would be an auto "T". Until there is an actual punch in the face, I am not sure you can do anything. If there is no action, it becomes a 'he said/she said" incident. The coach could claim it is a figure of speech, or that you misheard what they said. If there was nothing else going on then just the coach yelling at his team, then that would be one thing. If that coach is on the floor and has their arm around a player and is pointing at the other teams huddle and singling out a player, then I would hit the T right there.
In the OP, I would make sure that the whole crew that something might be afoot and get us all on the same page. Since the player took the swing they would both be gone. I would make sure that our supervisor knew of the incident and I am positive we would send a letter to the school stating that unless changes were made they would have to find another organization to cover their contests.

1. Coach swearing isn't an auto-T, IMO. 99% of the time? Maybe. 90%? Sure. But not automatic.
2. If a coach tells his player to punch another player, I cannot imagine a situation in which i wouldn't call a flagrant T.
3. You don't think telling a player to punch an opponent is worse than swearing?
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Old Tue Jun 22, 2010, 06:18am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
1. Coach swearing isn't an auto-T, IMO. 99% of the time? Maybe. 90%? Sure. But not automatic.
2. If a coach tells his player to punch another player, I cannot imagine a situation in which i wouldn't call a flagrant T.
3. You don't think telling a player to punch an opponent is worse than swearing?
+1

A coach telling a player to punch another player might in fact constitute a crime.
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Old Tue Jun 22, 2010, 06:34am
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Coach is done regardless if the player throws or connects the punch.

player is done if they throw it.

Either way, coach is going.

I agree- coach swearing not an auto T. If they are pissed at their players or made a boneheaded mistake then they can vent their frustration at themselves and their team. If their venting is loud enough that people in the crowd can hear it, well then we have an issue.

If their swearing is directed at me, well then we have another issue.
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Old Tue Jun 22, 2010, 08:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett View Post
On other recent threads, we've discussed assessing technicals to the coach, the team or to specific players for certain acts. Here's a hypothetical we can discuss.

NF rules. During a dead ball, Coach A loudly tells A1 to punch B1 in the face and you hear this. A1 does so. Do you have a flagrant technical only on Coach A, only on A1 or do you call one on each? Do you agree any foul(s) should be a flagrant?
Easiest call of the game. Flagrant on both.
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Old Tue Jun 22, 2010, 08:19am
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Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
Easiest call of the game.
According to a recent gallup poll of 10,000 fans, the easiest call of the game is that their player got fouled
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Old Tue Jun 22, 2010, 08:56am
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So for arguments sake, since we all like a good argument, what if a coach yells something like the following:

"Next time he sets a moving screen, blast right through it!"

"Foul him!!!" ..... or other variations thereof at the end of a game...

In this case, do we T for the "blast through" comment? call an intentional in either case? thoughts?
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Old Tue Jun 22, 2010, 09:09am
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Originally Posted by paxsonref View Post

1) "Next time he sets a moving screen, blast right through it!"

2) "Foul him!!!" ..... or other variations thereof at the end of a game...

In this case, do we T for the "blast through" comment? call an intentional in either case? thoughts?
1) I'd tell the coach that if his player blasts through the screen, the call is going to be either an intentional foul or a flagrant foul, depending on the severity of the contact. And if it is a flagrant foul, the coach would be getting a flagrant "T" also for telling one of his players to go after an opponent like that.

2) Call what actually happens, not the instructions. If the player makes a legitimate attempt to play the ball, you shouldn't call an intentional foul even though you know the team wanted to foul. From POE 3B in the NFHS 2004-05 rulebook:
"There is a right way and a wrong way to foul. Coaches must instruct their players in the proper technique for strategic fouling. "Going for the ball" is a common phrase heard, but intentional fouls should still be called on players who go for the ball if it is not done properly. Conversely, a coach who yells "Foul!" instructions to his or her team does NOT mean that the ensuing foul is "automatically" an intentional foul- even though it is a strategic foul designed to stop the clock. Coaches, officials,players, fans and administrators must accept fouling as a legitimate coaching strategy.".

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Tue Jun 22, 2010 at 09:11am.
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Old Tue Jun 22, 2010, 09:23am
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Originally Posted by Mark Padgett View Post
NF rules. During a dead ball, Coach A loudly tells A1 to punch B1 in the face and you hear this. A1 does so. Do you have a flagrant technical only on Coach A, only on A1 or do you call one on each? Do you agree any foul(s) should be a flagrant?
Eject everybody. Yes. Both.
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