One T or two - if one, on who?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Amen, Mike.

We have the responsibility to make sure that the game is played in a safe enviroment that's completely free of threats, intimidation or any other crap like this. And if an official don't have the balls to take care of bidness, then he should be coaching, not officiating. We NEVER make any call out there while worrying if a coach might disagree with it.

Good thing, or I'd think I didn't do a very good job last night.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Good thing, or I'd think I didn't do a very good job last night.

Somehow, I think that you didn't spend very much time worrying about what the coach mighta thought of you or your calls.

The guy in the mirror is the guy that you have to keep happy. And some people have to learn that.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Somehow, I think that you didn't spend very much time worrying about what the coach mighta thought of you or your calls.

The guy in the mirror is the guy that you have to keep happy. And some people have to learn that.

Yup. I've worked more summer ball this year than I have in the past, and I'm amazed at how few of these coaches know how to ask a question. Lots of statements starting with "that's a," but very few questions.

[Judtech]

I am just presenting how the scenario would play out. Some have said they would only give a "T", some said "Flagrant T" . SNAQ asked what would happen if nothing were done to the coach and the kid went out and punched the player. The response I gave was what would happen if you DID do something about the coach and the kid STILL punched him.
As for "loudly" I hate to split hairs but what is "loudly"? Is it a small gym with 8 people in it and everyone heard? Is it a big gym with 1000's of people in it and only I heard it? Did I catch the whole conversation? Is the coach not only yelling but being demonstrative? These are the things I take into consideration. None of which involves what the coach will think. I am cognisant of what the officiating board and state board think and I know that any ejection will get a thorough reveiw. Most likely the coach will complain about the ejection to "the powers that be". IMO, it is my job to have made sure that they don't have a leg to stand on. Obviously, I think this is a reasobable approach, and just as obviously some don't.
Of course, I am having flashbacks to The Great Santini, which would be a whole DIFFERENT story!
And legally, if your standard is followed, all the coach would have to do is show he has used that phrase before and no one was punched. The old saying is Its not what you know, its what you can prove.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Judtech

And legally, if your standard is followed, all the coach would have to do is show he has used that phrase before and no one was punched. The old saying is Its not what you know, its what you can prove.

I'm not going to try on the rest. You're obviously a lot smarter than me.

But you're flat wrong on this last. Real case - Dallas area coach told his pitcher, (he claims in jest), "If he does that crap again, nail him." Said player did "that crap" again - pitcher nailed him. Batter was in the hospital a while. Coach was sued by both the batter AND the pitcher, and brought up on criminal charges of Endangering a Child, Inciting a Minor to Commit a Crime, AND Battery. Guilty on all 3, lost both civil cases, and I recently heard he was denied parole a few weeks ago. This happened while I lived there, so at least 3 years ago.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I'm not going to try on the rest. You're obviously a lot smarter than me.

But you're flat wrong on this last. Real case - Dallas area coach told his pitcher, (he claims in jest), "If he does that crap again, nail him." Said player did "that crap" again - pitcher nailed him. Batter was in the hospital a while. Coach was sued by both the batter AND the pitcher, and brought up on criminal charges of Endangering a Child, Inciting a Minor to Commit a Crime, AND Battery. Guilty on all 3, lost both civil cases, and I recently heard he was denied parole a few weeks ago. This happened while I lived there, so at least 3 years ago.

I think we agree on this actually. The difference is that the pitcher actually DID hit the batter. Same in this case if the player punched the other player. You also see lawsuits that involve coaches saying things like "We are going to run till we drop" and sure enough a player drops. That is why you are seeing an emphasis in coaching to steer away from things like "Suicides" "Killers" etc because of liability.
The point I was making was if the coach SAID it but the player didn't act on it you would have a tough case to prove criminality.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Judtech

I think we agree on this actually. The difference is that the pitcher actually DID hit the batter. Same in this case if the player punched the other player. You also see lawsuits that involve coaches saying things like "We are going to run till we drop" and sure enough a player drops. That is why you are seeing an emphasis in coaching to steer away from things like "Suicides" "Killers" etc because of liability.
The point I was making was if the coach SAID it but the player didn't act on it you would have a tough case to prove criminality.

I'm pretty sure the legal definition of assault can include verbal threats of violence. I could be wrong, however.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

The point I was making was if the coach SAID it but the player didn't act on it you would have a tough case to prove criminality.

Nope, the point that you made was that you wouldn't do a damn thing as an official about a coach saying sumthin' like that except maybe tell your partners. No "T"...no ejection...no nothing! And I don't think that anybody else that has responded so far has agreed with you. Shouldn't that tell you something?

Are you MTD Sr.'s evil spawn, by any chance? Trying to keep you on track relative to your original response back in post #4 of this thread is like trying to nail jello to a wall.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You're obviously a lot smarter than me.

Fixed it for ya.....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Fixed it for ya.....

crap, JR used blue font. I just lost about 4 bets.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Judtech

I am just presenting how the scenario would play out. Some have said they would only give a "T", some said "Flagrant T" . SNAQ asked what would happen if nothing were done to the coach and the kid went out and punched the player. The response I gave was what would happen if you DID do something about the coach and the kid STILL punched him.
As for "loudly" I hate to split hairs but what is "loudly"? Is it a small gym with 8 people in it and everyone heard? Is it a big gym with 1000's of people in it and only I heard it? Did I catch the whole conversation? Is the coach not only yelling but being demonstrative? These are the things I take into consideration. None of which involves what the coach will think. I am cognisant of what the officiating board and state board think and I know that any ejection will get a thorough reveiw. Most likely the coach will complain about the ejection to "the powers that be". IMO, it is my job to have made sure that they don't have a leg to stand on. Obviously, I think this is a reasobable approach, and just as obviously some don't.

I think it's officiating in fear. Personally, I don't care if the state "upholds" my flagrant in this sort of situation. I will have done my job and slept well at night. If the state buys the coach's story, so be it. They will have my report. And if the coach has that much power and stature, it won't matter what the tape says anyway.

I don't reserve technical fouls for actions or words that are picked up on video tape. Would you call the flagrant if you knew there was no video tape of the game at all?

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think it's officiating in fear. Personally, I don't care if the state "upholds" my flagrant in this sort of situation. I will have done my job and slept well at night. If the state buys the coach's story, so be it. They will have my report. And if the coach has that much power and stature, it won't matter what the tape says anyway.

I don't reserve technical fouls for actions or words that are picked up on video tape. Would you call the flagrant if you knew there was no video tape of the game at all?

Great point, and I personally make the differentiation between a "T" and a Flagrant/andor ejection. Despite my Mr Joviality persona, I used to be one that would rather tick off a coach more than help them out. This caused me more problems than not early on. Working with my mentor, the line I drew seems to work for me. Basically, if I give a T treat it like a foul, but anything more severe ask myself "Am I doing this to the coach, b/c I want to or b/c they deserve it." and/or "Will a neutral observer agree with my decision". While some may call that 'officiating scared' in my case it has really improved my game management and interaction skills

And you are correct about there being criminal verbal assault. However, in a sporting event, the bar is set rather high b/c of the nature of the environment. It is much lower in domestic violence cases or your local adult beverage consuming station.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Judtech

Great point, and I personally make the differentiation between a "T" and a Flagrant/andor ejection. Despite my Mr Joviality persona, I used to be one that would rather tick off a coach more than help them out. This caused me more problems than not early on. Working with my mentor, the line I drew seems to work for me. Basically, if I give a T treat it like a foul, but anything more severe ask myself "Am I doing this to the coach, b/c I want to or b/c they deserve it." and/or "Will a neutral observer agree with my decision". While some may call that 'officiating scared' in my case it has really improved my game management and interaction skills

I would only change it to, "would a neutral observer who knows everything I know agree with the call?" The simple fact is, sometimes coaches make comments that only we can hear that still have to be dealt with. The neutral observer in the stands may not hear it.
I just ask myself, "What would Bob do?"

Originally Posted by Judtech

And you are correct about there being criminal verbal assault. However, in a sporting event, the bar is set rather high b/c of the nature of the environment. It is much lower in domestic violence cases or your local adult beverage consuming station.

agreed.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yup. I've worked more summer ball this year than I have in the past, and I'm amazed at how few of these coaches know how to ask a question. Lots of statements starting with "that's a," but very few questions.

But they do seem to have the "statement question" down:
"How can you call that in summer league"?
"We don't get that call during the season?"
"WHy can't you just let them play''?
"Why can't my player get that call?"
"Well how come that was a foul last week"?
"You know they don't call it this way over in ______"?
and everyones favorite:
"Why does Kobe get to wear a wrist braclet?"

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Judtech

But they do seem to have the "statement question" down:
"How can you call that in summer league"?
"We don't get that call during the season?"
"WHy can't you just let them play''?
"Why can't my player get that call?"
"Well how come that was a foul last week"?
"You know they don't call it this way over in ______"?
and everyones favorite:
"Why does Kobe get to wear a wrist braclet?"

That would be a step up from what I'm getting. And, FTR, I treat those "questions" just as I treat statements.