One T or two - if one, on who?

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Wow... what an enormous pile of nonsense.

ANY Tech for something a coach says "could" become a he said she said ... he "could" claim it as a figure of speech, and he "could" say you misheard him (heck ... this happens all the time!) but it doesn't matter - you heard it, and you have the responsibility to act on it. You T this IMMEDIATELY, and eject, and report.

Why is this a pile of nonsense? At what point do we draw the line when we do and do not penalize what a coach says? Several posts have stated phrases that coaches use that we ignore. I know that if/when I hear something akin to this, my red flag goes up and I make sure we as a crew are on the same page and on 'heightened alert'.
I gave an instance where I would toss the coach immediately, but the OP was more vague. Was the coach responding to a player who caught a cheap shot and was telling them to punch the player in the face if it happens again? Was the coaches team up and he was telling his players now was the time to "Punch them in the face" for the knockout? Is the coach exhorting his team to toughen up and punch the other team in the face defensively? Same to a player. All of these are phrases I have heard coaches use even though I think there are better phrases to use to get the point across.

[MD Longhorn]

Jud, first off ... if "Punch him in the face? (regardless of what happens beforehand) is not across your line, I strongly suggest that you redraw it. It's been stated above (and accurately) that just telling a kid to punch another kid is a crime in some places.

Second - it was really the rest of your post that was complete nonsense. You can't justify not giving a tech because the coach might disagree with you, and it would end being he-said-she-said. That's so far down the bottomless pit of absurdity, I can't even fathom thinking this way. ALL of your justifications for not Teeing this guy up and/or tossing him were nearly as absurd.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Jud, first off ... if "Punch him in the face? (regardless of what happens beforehand) is not across your line, I strongly suggest that you redraw it. It's been stated above (and accurately) that just telling a kid to punch another kid is a crime in some places.

Second - it was really the rest of your post that was complete nonsense. You can't justify not giving a tech because the coach might disagree with you, and it would end being he-said-she-said. That's so far down the bottomless pit of absurdity, I can't even fathom thinking this way. ALL of your justifications for not Teeing this guy up and/or tossing him were nearly as absurd.

I am pretty happy with where my line is drawn. As for 'being a crime' one of the things you would have to prove would be that there was no other way to interpret that type of instruction. It can be easily proved that the phrase used can have multiple meanings depending on the situation. There was also no action based on the comments so you could not prove intent either. But I digress. Again, I don't like the terminology but you would be hard press to make it criminal
As for you second point, hopefully I clarified what I meant and why I said the 'he said/she said' thing. If not, I can try again.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Jud, first off ... if "Punch him in the face? (regardless of what happens beforehand) is not across your line, I strongly suggest that you redraw it. It's been stated above (and accurately) that just telling a kid to punch another kid is a crime in some places.

Second - it was really the rest of your post that was complete nonsense. You can't justify not giving a tech because the coach might disagree with you, and it would end being he-said-she-said. That's so far down the bottomless pit of absurdity, I can't even fathom thinking this way. ALL of your justifications for not Teeing this guy up and/or tossing him were nearly as absurd.

Amen, Mike.

We have the responsibility to make sure that the game is played in a safe enviroment that's completely free of threats, intimidation or any other crap like this. And if an official don't have the balls to take care of bidness, then he should be coaching, not officiating. We NEVER make any call out there while worrying if a coach might disagree with it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Amen, Mike.

We have the responsibility to make sure that the game is played in a safe enviroment that's completely free of threats, intimidation or any other crap like this. And if an official don't have the balls to take care of bidness, then he should be coaching, not officiating. We NEVER make any call out there while worrying if a coach might disagree with it.

Good thing, or I'd think I didn't do a very good job last night.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Good thing, or I'd think I didn't do a very good job last night.

Somehow, I think that you didn't spend very much time worrying about what the coach mighta thought of you or your calls.

The guy in the mirror is the guy that you have to keep happy. And some people have to learn that.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Somehow, I think that you didn't spend very much time worrying about what the coach mighta thought of you or your calls.

The guy in the mirror is the guy that you have to keep happy. And some people have to learn that.

Yup. I've worked more summer ball this year than I have in the past, and I'm amazed at how few of these coaches know how to ask a question. Lots of statements starting with "that's a," but very few questions.

[Judtech]

I am just presenting how the scenario would play out. Some have said they would only give a "T", some said "Flagrant T" . SNAQ asked what would happen if nothing were done to the coach and the kid went out and punched the player. The response I gave was what would happen if you DID do something about the coach and the kid STILL punched him.
As for "loudly" I hate to split hairs but what is "loudly"? Is it a small gym with 8 people in it and everyone heard? Is it a big gym with 1000's of people in it and only I heard it? Did I catch the whole conversation? Is the coach not only yelling but being demonstrative? These are the things I take into consideration. None of which involves what the coach will think. I am cognisant of what the officiating board and state board think and I know that any ejection will get a thorough reveiw. Most likely the coach will complain about the ejection to "the powers that be". IMO, it is my job to have made sure that they don't have a leg to stand on. Obviously, I think this is a reasobable approach, and just as obviously some don't.
Of course, I am having flashbacks to The Great Santini, which would be a whole DIFFERENT story!
And legally, if your standard is followed, all the coach would have to do is show he has used that phrase before and no one was punched. The old saying is Its not what you know, its what you can prove.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yup. I've worked more summer ball this year than I have in the past, and I'm amazed at how few of these coaches know how to ask a question. Lots of statements starting with "that's a," but very few questions.

But they do seem to have the "statement question" down:
"How can you call that in summer league"?
"We don't get that call during the season?"
"WHy can't you just let them play''?
"Why can't my player get that call?"
"Well how come that was a foul last week"?
"You know they don't call it this way over in ______"?
and everyones favorite:
"Why does Kobe get to wear a wrist braclet?"

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Judtech

Why is this a pile of nonsense? At what point do we draw the line when we do and do not penalize what a coach says? Several posts have stated phrases that coaches use that we ignore. I know that if/when I hear something akin to this, my red flag goes up and I make sure we as a crew are on the same page and on 'heightened alert'.
I gave an instance where I would toss the coach immediately, but the OP was more vague. Was the coach responding to a player who caught a cheap shot and was telling them to punch the player in the face if it happens again? Was the coaches team up and he was telling his players now was the time to "Punch them in the face" for the knockout? Is the coach exhorting his team to toughen up and punch the other team in the face defensively? Same to a player. All of these are phrases I have heard coaches use even though I think there are better phrases to use to get the point across.

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

NF rules. During a dead ball, Coach A loudly tells A1 to punch B1 in the face and you hear this. A1 does so. Do you have a flagrant technical only on Coach A, only on A1 or do you call one on each? Do you agree any foul(s) should be a flagrant?

I don't think there's much ambiguity here. I've never heard a coach use "punch in the face" as a euphemism for "finish them off." Further, specifying the request to punch a specific player (B1) pretty much removes any ambiguity you might have felt was present.
Personally, if I think it might be some sort of poorly chosen euphemism, I might consider a regular T. But the way the OP is presented, the coach is done.

Consider it this way, by tossing the coach you're making it clear that his actions and words aren't going to be tolerated, and you're making it significantly less likely that A1 will follow his coach's directive.

Again, I won't say it's automatic, but I can't imagine a scenario where this doesn't get a flagrant T in my game.