Unsporting Tech

[hoopguy]

Spent the weekend watching daughter's AAU. Found a couple interesting observations.

One team had a little bit of attitude with refs but seemed typical for AAU. After the game, the girls asked me if I had seen a particular incident and I did not see it from the sidelines. After a foul call, as the calling official was reporting the foul, the girl who committed the foul gave him the finger with both hands from behind him so that he did not see. From my vantage point on the sidelines, I did see the girls on that team giggling as the free throws were being shot but I did not know the reason at the time. The calling official’s partner had not crossed the division line so he was in no position to see this either. My question is, if you were the non calling official and were in position to see the player give your partner the finger behind his back, what would you call? I am thinking flagrant unsporting Tech. Is that overboard? Should it just be an unsporting tech? What about a varsity game? What call to make?

Another AAU play that caught my attention... Inbounds pass under team A's basket. Player A1 throws the ball deep and player A2 can just reach up and touches the ball in the front court and then chases into the back court and grabs the ball. The official does not call a backcourt violation. The player A2, assuming it is a backcourt violation begins walking the ball back toward the official and commits an obvious traveling violation and then realizes what is happening and passes the ball. No idea why the official missed the obvious travel but got the fact that it was not backcourt. Maybe he was congratulating himself or arguing with the coach. After the game, I saw the coach questioning the official about that particular non call on the backcourt so I think he may have been distracted. It seemed funny how he got the tough call but missed the easy one.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

My question is, if you were the non calling official and were in position to see the player give your partner the finger behind his back, what would you call?

This is a flagrant technical foul at any level, except perhaps the NBE. Ask yourself this - what does that gesture indicate? It doesn't matter if the player verbalizes that thought or transmits it in a gesture, it means the same thing.

Frankly, it shouldn't just be an ejection, but also a suspension at that level. If it happened in a kids game I was working and the player didn't also get a suspension, I'd raise a huge stink.

I can't even imagine how you could think it might just be a non-flagrant technical.

[Adam]

1. Easy flagrant.

2. LOL, I'm sure it's happened to me before.

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1. Easy flagrant.

2. LOL, I'm sure it's happened to me before.

hahaha...that's exactly what i was thinking...errr...meaning, it's probably happened to ME before.

lord knows i've gotten looks that convey the same message.

[Adam]

I know there have been times I've missed an illegal dribble because I get straightlined by either the defender or the dribbler. I've told the coach, "yeah, I'm sure she did, I just couldn't see it from my angle and I'm not going to guess."

On the play in question, I could see myself responding, "No, coach, I didn't see it because I glanced at you to answer your question." (snarky part to keep out: "It won't happen again.")

[APG]

1. That's an easy flagrant technical foul. I can't see at any level of play, 5 year old all the way to the NBA, where a player would remain in the game for doing this.

2. Sometimes, stuff happens. This would be a play where I wouldn't mind a partner coming in and getting the play. Especially if it's as blatant as you made it sound out to be. Surprised B's coach didn't give the non-calling official heck

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

1. That's an easy flagrant technical foul. I can't see at any level of play, 5 year old all the way to the NBA, where a player would remain in the game for doing this.

2. Sometimes, stuff happens. This would be a play where I wouldn't mind a partner coming in and getting the play. Especially if it's as blatant as you made it sound out to be. Surprised B's coach didn't give the non-calling official heck

2. he was probably looking at the official and asking why he didn't call a backcourt violation.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

2. he was probably looking at the official and asking why he didn't call a backcourt violation.

I would still think he'd be able to see a player walking with the basketball but that does make sense haha

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I would still think he'd be able to see a player walking with the basketball but that does make sense haha

True, or he realized the reason the official didn't see it was because the two (official and coach) were engaged in conversation.

I also agree that I wouldn't mind my partner catching this if he sees I'm talking to the coach.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

1) My question is, if you were the non calling official and were in position to see the player give your partner the finger behind his back, what would you call?

2) Inbounds pass under team A's basket. Player A1 throws the ball deep and player A2 can just reach up and touches the ball in the front court and then chases into the back court and grabs the ball. The official does not call a backcourt violation. The player A2, assuming it is a backcourt violation begins walking the ball back toward the official and commits an obvious traveling violation and then realizes what is happening and passes the ball.

1) No brainer. Flagrant technical foul on the l'il sh!t, no matter the age. Might as well learn now.

2) Never a backcourt violation under NFHS/NCAA rules. The subsequent travel should have been called. We don't teach the rules; we just call 'em. And have to explain 'em.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

True, or he realized the reason the official didn't see it was because the two (official and coach) were engaged in conversation.

He was probably telling the official how he was absolutely correct in not calling a backcourt violation. Official was so shocked that the coach agreed that he missed the travel.

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

This is a flagrant technical foul at any level, except perhaps the NBE. Ask yourself this - what does that gesture indicate? It doesn't matter if the player verbalizes that thought or transmits it in a gesture, it means the same thing.

Frankly, it shouldn't just be an ejection, but also a suspension at that level. If it happened in a kids game I was working and the player didn't also get a suspension, I'd raise a huge stink.

I can't even imagine how you could think it might just be a non-flagrant technical.

Do you see it as different than verbalizing it? I would have gone with non-flagrant.
10-3-6 b. covers obscene gestures.
4-19-4 defines Flagrant "...noncontact which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive contact conduct."

Fixed it.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

Do you see it as different than verbalizing it? I would have gone with non-flagrant.
10-3-6 b. covers obscene gestures.
4-19-4 defines Flagrant "...noncontact which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive contact."

You made a mistake when you copied 4-19-4. It doesn't say "vulgar or abusive contact" - it says "vulgar or abusive conduct". Flipping off an official is definitely vulgar conduct.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

Do you see it as different than verbalizing it? I would have gone with non-flagrant.
10-3-6 b. covers obscene gestures.
4-19-4 defines Flagrant "...noncontact which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive contact."

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

You made a mistake when you copied 4-19-4. It doesn't say "vulgar or abusive contact" - it says "vulgar or abusive conduct". Flipping off an official is definitely vulgar conduct.

I'm with Padgett on this one, easy flagrant. I'd say "especially in summer ball," but it's such a no-brainer for me even in regular season HS ball, it really doesn't make sense to add "especially in...."

[APG]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Also, and this is just a thought, but directing your warning to the partners and the rest of the gym really comes across as demeaning and dismissive. IMO, it's better to warn the coach and inform your parters than it is to phrase your warning as a statement to your partners.

Wrong thread?