Is Flagrant T unsporting?

[Bart Tyson]

A1 has the ball, facing oob on the baseline, B1 pushes A1 oob. Official gives the player the O heave ho, you are out of here signal. Now I can't remember if the whistle was for the push or if the official had a whistle and then B1 pushes and then the Flagrant T. Either way we have an ejection. Is this a unsporting T?

[ChuckElias]

I'm not trying to be cute, but does it really matter? The push itself doesn't seem flagrant to me, unless the kid ended up 10 rows into the bleachers and you just forgot to mention it.

Even if it was after an initial whistle, I'd just have an intentional T here.

But since it was judged flagrant, I think it would definitely qualify as unsportsmanlike.

[Bart Tyson]

My judgement was an intentional. In this case it did matter. This was the Show Me State Games. Special rules. Two unsporting T's and the game is over. I was reading the NCAA rule book and I didn't read this to be unsporting "by Rule". They use HS rules.

[Jurassic Referee]

Bart, there musta been a whistle first- before the push OOB. Otherwise, the foul would have occured during a live ball, and being a live-ball contact foul, by definition would have had to be a flagrant personal foul.

If the push happened after the whistle, as you thought, then it's strictly a judgement call as to what kind of technical foul it is- an intentional "T" or a flagrant "T". I don't think that it has to be "unsporting" also if you call it either. Under NFHS R10-3, Article 7 refers to "unsporting" technical fouls. A separate article- Article 8 - refers to "intentionally or flagrantly contacting an opponent when the ball is dead and such contact is not a personal foul". Iow, by rule, you can say the flagrant "T"(or an intentional "T", for that matter) wasn't really identifed as being "unsporting" according to a strict reading of the rules. There's different rules covering each type of "T"- unsporting and intentional/flagrant..

Jmo.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 22nd, 2005 at 06:43 PM]

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
My judgement was an intentional. In this case it did matter. This was the Show Me State Games. Special rules. Two unsporting T's and the game is over. I was reading the NCAA rule book and I didn't read this to be unsporting "by Rule". They use HS rules.

That's the problem with tournament-specific guidelines.

I'd tend to read this to mean "unsporting" as opposed to the administrative-type technicals (excess TO's, reaching over the plane, etc.). Of course, without seeing the full regulation, it's just a guess.

[Nevadaref]

I'm STUNNED that no one has stated this so far, but according to the NFHS definition of an unsporting foul, this clearly does NOT qualify.

RULE 4 Definitions
SECTION 19 FOUL
ART. 13 . . . An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical or dishonorable conduct.


Bart,
Since your play involved physical contact, it just doesn't qualify as unsporting under NFHS rules, the rules which you specified that tournament follows, no matter how much anyone might want it to.

I too understand what the people who run the tournament are trying to do, but they need to realize that they are using the word "unsporting" in a different manner than the NFHS rules book. They are using the common language definition while the NFHS rules book gives a very narrow and specific meaning to the word which officials must use to categorize the fouls that occur during a game.
Therefore, the tournament directors need to amend their regulation so that it says "two unsporting, intentional, OR flagrant technical fouls charged to one team terminates the game, and that team forfeits."

[Bart Tyson]

I thought I was reading the rules the same as you. I didn't think, by rule, this is considered unsporting T.

[refTN]

Bart,

In the NBA the flagrant can be unsporting or not. they have a flagrant (penalty 1) which is unecessary contact which is not unsportsmanlike and they have a flagrant (penalty 2) which is unecessary and excessive contact which is unsportsmanlike and results in an automatic ejection.

If this is a high school game and the player just shoves him right in the back before or after the whistle, in my mind it is unsporting because it is unbecoming to the image of basketball and how it is supposed to be played, but as someone said earlier it is not because there is contact and the only unsporting fouls in HS are ones that don't involve contact.

[Edited by refTN on Aug 26th, 2005 at 12:27 PM]