5 second call in the backcourt

[Hornets222003]

Has this ever happened in a game you were doing?

I was doing an AAU game today. My partner calls a 5 second closely guarded violation in the backcourt. Maybe he had a brain fart. I'm not sure. All I know is that I looked up when the whistle blew just in time for him to give the 5 fingers and point the other way. It was a strange way to start of the first of 6 games together.

[refnrev]

I did it once, the first year I was an official -- probably my second game. Needless to say, I felt stupid.

[APG]

Perhaps your partner is used to officiating under NCAA Women's rules? That's the only code where there can be a closely guarded count in the backcourt (provided the ball is held and the defender is within THREE feet).

Did you ask your partner about the call when you had the opportunity? How did he rationalize the call?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Perhaps your partner is used to officiating under NCAA Women's rules? That's the only code where there can be a closely guarded count in the backcourt (provided the ball is held and the defender is within THREE feet).

Did you ask your partner about the call when you had the opportunity? How did he rationalize the call?

NCAA Women's is NOT the only code that has this violation, so does FIBA.

MTD, Sr.

[bainsey]

Did you ever speak with him about it, Hornet?

[Hornets222003]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Did you ask your partner about the call when you had the opportunity? How did he rationalize the call?

I didn't bother to ask. When he called it, he didn't seem 100% sure about it, so I just assumed that he had a moment. I probably should have though.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Hornets222003

When he called it, he didn't seem 100% sure about it, so I just assumed that he had a moment. I probably should have though.

These things may appear delicate, but they can be handled.

If you call over your partner, and have a brief, quiet discussion away from the players, you can let him know that the rule in question isn't applicable at that time. (Don't do this on judgment calls, only when a rule is kicked.) Communicate the correct rule to him, and leave it up to him to change it to an inadvertant whistle, if he chooses.

In my sophomore year, I had a backcourt violation a few seconds after the tip-off. I may have kicked it, but that's not what sticks in my mind. My veteran partner immediately changed my call, without even speaking to me, and gave it back to the "violating" team for a division-line throw in. I was too stunned to react, and I didn't speak with him about it either, but I lost a ton of respect for the man for handling it that way.

[Hornets222003]

Originally Posted by bainsey

These things may appear delicate, but they can be handled.

If you call over your partner, and have a brief, quiet discussion away from the players, you can let him know that the rule in question isn't applicable at that time. (Don't do this on judgment calls, only when a rule is kicked.) Communicate the correct rule to him, and leave it up to him to change it to an inadvertant whistle, if he chooses.

In my sophomore year, I had a backcourt violation a few seconds after the tip-off. I may have kicked it, but that's not what sticks in my mind. My veteran partner immediately changed my call, without even speaking to me, and gave it back to the "violating" team for a division-line throw in. I was too stunned to react, and I didn't speak with him about it either, but I lost a ton of respect for the man for handling it that way.

Well we didn't start off communicating well. He came over at the beginning of that game and said that due to the fact that we had to do 6 games, we would not do any switching on foul calls. I didn't like the idea because I know that looks bad on a crew and plus, I like to always do this job right, but I gave in because he is 20 years my senior in the officiating profession, and is a regular at this particular venue.

Over the course of the games he constantly reached into my primary to make calls, he showed horrible mechanics, let 6th grade boys consistently beat him down the court as lead, and he just didn't look like he was trying very hard. At the end of the first game, I was just concerned with getting the others over with while keeping my questions to a minimum. He was a nice guy, but not very professional. But then again, he's certified and I'm not, so what do I know. Maybe that's what you get during summer AAU ball.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Hornets222003

Well we didn't start off communicating well. He came over at the beginning of that game and said that due to the fact that we had to do 6 games, we would not do any switching on foul calls. I didn't like the idea because I know that looks bad on a crew and plus, I like to always do this job right, but I gave in because he is 20 years my senior in the officiating profession, and is a regular at this particular venue.

Someone gave you 6 games to do in one setting and you think it makes you look bad to not switch on fouls? Really?

Originally Posted by Hornets222003

Over the course of the games he constantly reached into my primary to make calls, he showed horrible mechanics, let 6th grade boys consistently beat him down the court as lead, and he just didn't look like he was trying very hard. At the end of the first game, I was just concerned with getting the others over with while keeping my questions to a minimum. He was a nice guy, but not very professional. But then again, he's certified and I'm not, so what do I know. Maybe that's what you get during summer AAU ball.

You are working 6 games in a row, yeah!!!! Be glad he even ran.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Hornets222003

Well we didn't start off communicating well. He came over at the beginning of that game and said that due to the fact that we had to do 6 games, we would not do any switching on foul calls. I didn't like the idea because I know that looks bad on a crew and plus, I like to always do this job right, but I gave in because he is 20 years my senior in the officiating profession, and is a regular at this particular venue.

You had to do six games and he didn't want to switch? In summer AAU games? And you think that looks bad on a crew?

Lah me!

Just....lah me!

I sureashell don't want to resurrect that long thread that just ended a while ago on the same subject.....the topic was beaten to death....but if your partner has some shortcomings as an official, not switching while doing 6 AAU games in 1 day sureashell ain't one of them imo.

Ask an assignor sometimes what he thinks of this. He'll probably tell you that if he insisted that his officials follow correct mechanics for 6 rec games in a day, he wouldn't find enough people to staff a pick-up game on an outside MS court.

[Kelvin green]

So in your AAU is clock running or not?

In our AAU,we use a running clock (stops on freethrows and last two minutes of half)...

So we always switch, and take our time doing it...

[Hornets222003]

Like I said, I'm new to how things are done outside the strict rigors of our intramural program, so maybe I'm just too young to know any better. I just know I would have been ripped by my former boss for not putting in the effort. And in those games we worked 3 game shifts for much higher levels of play. Maybe I try too hard. Who knows. To me, switching does not require a lot of effort. I wasn't expecting a switch on every single call, but a moderate number would have been sufficient. I understand that all of that takes a toll on the body. Also, running at the pace of 6th graders doesn't require you to be ready for the olympics. A light jog will put you in a great position. Those And usually the switch is anywhere from a walk to a light jog, so I don't see what the big deal is about doing it. And I've done 7 and 8 games in a day. I was a bit sore when done, but otherwise ok.

If you're lead, and you are at the free throw line extended when the action has settled in the front court, yes, I have a problem with that. Those people pay to play, so I think they deserve officials matching their effort. Maybe that's just me. I'm fine with being in the minority on that. We all volunteer the shifts that we are assigned. I think it would be pretty easy to say to the assignor, "No, I can't run for 6 game. Please only give me 3."

[Hornets222003]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

So in your AAU is clock running or not?

In our AAU,we use a running clock (stops on freethrows and last two minutes of half)...

So we always switch, and take our time doing it...

Yes, it's a running clock that stops during the last two minutes of the half. And yes, you could take your time during the switch.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NCAA Women's is NOT the only code that has this violation, so does FIBA.

Correct. OTOH, a five second closely guarded player violation is the last thing that can happen in the back court. The definition of closely guarded is

27.1 A player who is holding a live ball on the playing court is closely guarded when an opponent is in an active guarding position at a distance of no more than one (1) metre.

A dribble ends the count, which can start again only at the end of the dribble. Since there are 8 seconds to bring the ball in the front court, you see that it's almost impossible to call that kind of violation. Of course, players are able to harm themselves in many incredible ways.

Note: 1 m is a tad more than 3 ft, precisely 3 ft and 3.37 in. Isn't it easier to say "one meter"?

Ciao

[Mark Padgett]

I've worked tons of leagues and tournaments where we had at least four games in a row without a break. Usually, I'll tell my partner to switch "when it makes sense". That means when a foul call puts you in a position in which a switch would be a minimal change. However, if we go quite a long time without a switch, I'll usually indicate a switch on the next foul regardless of our positioning. Of course, sometimes we switch on violations if not switching would mean a significant change of position.

Around here, this is also referred to as "convenience mechanics".

A few years ago, I worked with a guy in a 5 games in a row situation in which he started switching on every foul. I told him there was no way I wanted to do that. He apologized and said it was "just habit." From then on, I could tell he had to physically stop himself from switching every time.