as a crew...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Why do some associations insist on perpetuating the good ol' boy crap?

I do not think this is an association issue, I think it is an individual issue. Individuals like to say "politics" or "Ole Boy Network" when they are not in the loop or they are not getting the assignments they feel they should. Politics that I have seen always applies to people of similar stature. Politics is not holding back a young official because an older guy is around. In many cases you need the younger guys to work or progress because the older guys will leave. But no one is just getting rid of some veteran because a younger official thinks they can officiate a little. No matter how you say that, younger guys want to get to the top fast and do not understand the ramifications if they mess up early in their careers. Veterans are often in higher positions because we know what we will get from them. I have no idea what some young whippersnapper is going to do when they have yet to prove themselves. And something tells me that these veterans probably would not have made as big deal about the issue as the younger officials would.

Peace

[vbzebra]

believe me, i want to learn as much as possible to become a better official, and I know that I'm not about to take the position/games of a well established veteran. It just seems like sometimes (at least that's what I've heard from others, both in my association and on this forum) that we (newer officials) are sometimes frowend upon when a veteran gives us advice and then we ask questions...with no intention of trying to "show up" a vet, but just to ask a simple question and get an answer for informational purposes.

I know it's a fine line to tread. In response to my original post, i know all 3 of us mucked up on that particular play, beginning with me getting straight lined. I know it's 'summer league', but I want to use those games to get better for the 'real' games come the winter.

All of these respones/answers have been extremly helpful, I really appreicate everyone's input!!

[GoodwillRef]

JRut,

Don't you also think the old boys systems is still around because the old boys have a lot of the games to assign? Those who have games have the power!

I assign a summer league in our area and we like to treat it just like the regular season. IMO too many guys let summer games get too rough and then all hell breaks loose and they wonder why that happen...it doesn't happen during the regular season.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

JRut,

Don't you also think the old boys systems is still around because the old boys have a lot of the games to assign? Those who have games have the power!

Maybe you work in a different system, but I am a President of an organization and I have no power as to who works and does not work games for anyone. All I can do is give my opinion on individuals that work in a couple of camps I am associated with and all that does is maybe we pass along some information if I am asked. And the people in my area that assign have to be impressed by the individual, not by me or anyone else in a similar position. And I did not hear that these two veterans were in a position to change the outcome of someone's career.

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

I assign a summer league in our area and we like to treat it just like the regular season. IMO too many guys let summer games get too rough and then all hell breaks loose and they wonder why that happen...it doesn't happen during the regular season.

I seriously doubt you treat it the same, because I doubt the participants treat it the same. In other words I doubt seriously that you have the same media coverage for summer games as you would during the regular season. Which probably means if a team wins a tournament or plays in a league, I doubt that there are banners hung up for those accomplishments or championships.

Also summer is probably the place where guys are working with people and teams they would likely not see during the winter. I am not talking about letting it get rough; I am talking about the ramifications for mistakes. Summer is the time to make a lot of them as the outcome is not going to be perceived the same.

I just think we should not over play this interaction. It was an interesting play that should have been handled differently in my opinion. But that does not mean that if some questions were asked the person's career would be over because they were talking about a play. Veterans that care talk about plays all the time to get better. And maybe if the right question was raised (like JeffPea suggested) then it might have been a teaching moment for all officials.

Peace

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I just think we should not over play this interaction. It was an interesting play that should have been handled differently in my opinion. But that does not mean that if some questions were asked the person's career would be over because they were talking about a play. Veterans that care talk about plays all the time to get better. And maybe if the right question was raised (like JeffPea suggested) then it might have been a teaching moment for all officials.

Peace

+1, especially the "diffferent" way of asking my original question (thanks to JeffPea). I know the vet was only trying to help, and i was totally appreciative of the info/help, just wish it could have come immidiately after i blew the call

[MD Longhorn]

Very few have answered OP's actual question...

Here's how I would have handled this, knowing that I'm a newbie and the other two are GOB veterans...

"Someone I worked with a few weeks ago was telling me that if I'm T or N in that situation, I should blow the whistle. Is that incorrect? If our positions were reversed on that play, would you expect me to call the foul? Would you, as L, have automatically come to your partners asking if they saw a foul, when you had no reason to believe there was one?"

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Maybe you work in a different system, but I am a President of an organization and I have no power as to who works and does not work games for anyone. All I can do is give my opinion on individuals that work in a couple of camps I am associated with and all that does is maybe we pass along some information if I am asked. And the people in my area that assign have to be impressed by the individual, not by me or anyone else in a similar position. And I did not hear that these two veterans were in a position to change the outcome of someone's career.

And the advice here has been to make sure the OP understands his system and who is who before saying a whole lot. Even completely professional remarks and intentions can be misconstrued by someone who wants to do so for whatever reason.

Our board president does not assign games, but I would guarantee you his opinion carries a lot of weight with our board's assigner. Here, unlike your area, all assignments come from the local association, so going sideways with leadership is a great way to limit options.

It seems to me there are three sorts of power players in most associations:
1. Officers (pres, vp, secretary, etc.)
2. Former Officers
3. Veterans who don't serve as official leadership but whose opinions carry significant weight.

As in every organization, some of those folks will be more "sensitive" than others.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And the advice here has been to make sure the OP understands his system and who is who before saying a whole lot. Even completely professional remarks and intentions can be misconstrued by someone who wants to do so for whatever reason.

If that is the case then none of us should ever officiate. That is life. Things in life can always be misconstrued, but that does not mean that one interaction is going to be the end all be all in someone's career. We are talking about one play here that was talked about. I do not think anyone should walk on egg shells to avoid all conflicts of any kind.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Our board president does not assign games, but I would guarantee you his opinion carries a lot of weight with our board's assigner. Here, unlike your area, all assignments come from the local association, so going sideways with leadership is a great way to limit options.

In my association we need young guys. They will one day replace us in all kinds of ways. I cannot be in my position forever. I am sure many other associations realize this too.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It seems to me there are three sorts of power players in most associations:
1. Officers (pres, vp, secretary, etc.)
2. Former Officers
3. Veterans who don't serve as official leadership but whose opinions carry significant weight.

As in every organization, some of those folks will be more "sensitive" than others.

I understand this, but this was not apart of the OP. He did not say his partners were in any particular stature other than they were veterans, which probably means they had some experience on him in officiating. Heck you might have a person that has a little experience on someone that has little perspective and they could "run and tell" what happened. We cannot spend all our time worrying about that or it will make us ineffective as officials. All veterans were helped at one time by other veterans when they were younger officials. I just think we should not automatically assume that everyone that has worked longer than you has the interest or the ability to ruin you over one game.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Heck you might have a person that has a little experience on someone that has little perspective and they could "run and tell" what happened. Peace

Not to mention, we've all worked with guys with 20 years experience, and other guys with 1 year of experience 20 times.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If that is the case then none of us should ever officiate. That is life. Things in life can always be misconstrued, but that does not mean that one interaction is going to be the end all be all in someone's career. We are talking about one play here that was talked about. I do not think anyone should walk on egg shells to avoid all conflicts of any kind.

Knowing what to say, how to say it, and to whom to say it are important traits no matter what part of life we're discussing. It's also different than walking on egg shells.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I understand this, but this was not apart of the OP. He did not say his partners were in any particular stature other than they were veterans, which probably means they had some experience on him in officiating. Heck you might have a person that has a little experience on someone that has little perspective and they could "run and tell" what happened. We cannot spend all our time worrying about that or it will make us ineffective as officials. All veterans were helped at one time by other veterans when they were younger officials. I just think we should not automatically assume that everyone that has worked longer than you has the interest or the ability to ruin you over one game.

Here is the relevant comment from the OP: "questioning seasoned veterans (a no no on our board when working with certain vets)."

I took this to mean that this group was, essentially, part of my #3 above. It doesn't mean the OP shouldn't or couldn't have probed deeper, but I think it does imply that he needs to be professional in how he brings it up. As scrapper points out, there are ways to do this by bringing it back upon yourself. For me, I can still use the "I just want to know how it's done here" card. In the OP, I could have said, "I just want to know how you guys do it so I'm consistent, but I was taught to come in with a foul in that situation. Are you saying it's expected to wait until the lead asks for help on this play?"

Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but sometimes it just is.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Knowing what to say, how to say it, and to whom to say it are important traits no matter what part of life we're discussing. It's also different than walking on egg shells.

Here is the relevant comment from the OP: "questioning seasoned veterans (a no no on our board when working with certain vets)."

I took this to mean that this group was, essentially, part of my #3 above. It doesn't mean the OP shouldn't or couldn't have probed deeper, but I think it does imply that he needs to be professional in how he brings it up. As scrapper points out, there are ways to do this by bringing it back upon yourself. For me, I can still use the "I just want to know how it's done here" card. In the OP, I could have said, "I just want to know how you guys do it so I'm consistent, but I was taught to come in with a foul in that situation. Are you saying it's expected to wait until the lead asks for help on this play?"

Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but sometimes it just is.

All I am saying is you cannot officiate in fear. You have to officiate as if you are just as good as the people you are dealing with. If there is a conflict, handle it professionally. And if there is a conflict, then know your place in that conflict. That is why the term "silence cannot be quoted" works in so many areas. But not talking about the play honestly is not good IMO. And I think stature of an official is based more on accomplishment then simply years of experience. We have many guys that have been around for 20 years but cannot work a playoff game. I would be more concerned about butting heads with the state final/college official than just a guy that I worked with that has been doing this for 15 years.

Peace