Excessive swinging of elbows

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by sseltser

From the OP:
This portion violates 4-24-6 and is illegal.

Are you saying this because you feel that it is illegal to extend one's elbow/s and make contact when ones hands are held near ones chest and/or their arms are held apporximately horizontal to the playing court? Where would you get an idea like that?

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) And you're treating 4-24-8 as if it doesn't exist. And 4-24-8 specifically refers to excessive and illegal elbow swinging, which is what we're discussing. Not all elbow swinging is excessive and illegal. If it was, any pivot with your arms out in a normal position would also be illegal. Do you really think that's the case?

2) There is nowayinhell you can call a PC foul or a violation on any offensive player with the ball while that player is making a LEGAL pivot. There is nothing written anywhere in the rules that will allow you to do so. To call either, you must have an illegal act of some kind to occur. And an legal pivot is NOt an illegal act. To say otherwise is simply ridiculous imo.

We're never going to agree. May I suggest that you take this to your local or state rules interpreter and ask them if an offensive player with the ball can ever be called for a PC foul or a violation while making a legal pivot.

I have to disagree with you on this. There are several rules at play.

The elbow swing does not have to be excessive,

If the elbow extends outside the vertical plane the responsibility for contact belongs to the offense. If the defender is inside the offensive space the it is a defensive foul.
There are plenty of pivots that are wide- There are plenty of pivots that extend into other players

Rarely is there going to be contact with an elbow in my game and not have a foul. This can never be incidental, It has to be called.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

I have to disagree with you on this. There are several rules at play.

The elbow swing does not have to be excessive,

If the elbow extends outside the vertical plane the responsibility for contact belongs to the offense. If the defender is inside the offensive space the it is a defensive foul.
There are plenty of pivots that are wide- There are plenty of pivots that extend into other players

Kelvin, if you go back and read some of my posts, you'll see that is exactly what I have been saying all along. The only difference is the terminology.

I said that during a non-excessive elbow swing:
1) If the elbow extends outside the offensive space, then the player with the ball has not made a legal pivot if contact occurs. PC foul.
2) If the defender is inside the offensive space, the player with the ball has made a legal pivot if contact occurs. Defensive foul or no call for incidental contact---> judgment call.

That is basically what you just stated above. It is also basically the response that I received back after asking the same question of several NCAA officials.

I can't see where we disagree.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Well, I was agreeing with you but now you've clarified again such that I don't.

Making a legal pivot doesn't imply that a player can legally make contact. I can think of several otherwise legal actions that, once contact is included, become a foul.

Imagine a player, A1, holding the ball with B1 having textbook LGP just 1" off of A1's left hip. A1 now pivots such that the left foot is his pivot foot. A1 pivots 360 degrees....but to do so A1 had to displace B1 since there is no way A1 could pivot through all 360 degrees without passing through the space occupied by B1. It doesn't matter if the contact was with the butt, elbow, knee, belly, etc....extended or otherwise. It is still a foul on A1. But, had B1 not been in that spot with LGP, it would have been a pefectly legal pivot.

What I read the POE is to say is that, short of excessive swigning, that typical elbow contact can usually be ruled incidental. But it stops short of saying that all elbow contact is legal as long as it is not excessive.

Thank you Camron. As I stated in my most recent post, I have no idea why the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees would use the word "legal" with the word pivot. Just say pivot, and if the player with the ball pivots in such a manner that causes illegal contact with the defender then the player with the ball has committed a foul.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

1) Making a legal pivot doesn't imply that a player can legally make contact. I can think of several otherwise legal actions that, once contact is included, become a foul.

2) What I read the POE is to say is that, short of excessive swigning, that typical elbow contact can usually be ruled incidental. But it stops short of saying that all elbow contact is legal as long as it is not excessive.

1) And I've been saying is that the same is basically true for an elbow that isn't being excessively swung. That action is legal even if the elbow is extended outside the offensive player's normally allowed space and doesn't make contact. It is a foul once contact is included though. Iow, it's a legal action that, once contact is included, becomes an illegal action. And when it becomes an illegal action, that also made the pivot illegal because the illegal action is part of the pivot. I think that we're both practically saying the exact same thing, but maybe getting hung up on the verbiage.

2) The people that I have talked to about this all agree and say that does need clarification.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

As I stated in my most recent post, I have no idea why the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees would use the word "legal" with the word pivot. Just say pivot, and if the player with the ball pivots in such a manner that causes illegal contact with the defender then the player with the ball has committed a foul.

I agree. You have no idea.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) And I've been saying is that the same is basically true for an elbow that isn't being excessively swung. That action is legal even if the elbow is extended outside the offensive player's normally allowed space and doesn't make contact. It is a foul once contact is included though. Iow, it's a legal action that, once contact is included, becomes an illegal action. And when it becomes an illegal action, that also made the pivot illegal because the illegal action is part of the pivot. I think that we're both practically saying the exact same thing, but maybe getting hung up on the verbiage.

2) The people that I have talked to about this all agree and say that does need clarification.

Sometimes, typed words don't clearly convey the thoughts of any of us...I really think we're probably, likely, hopefully talking the same thing.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I agree. You have no idea.

Who do you think you are, Padgett?

MTD, Sr.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sometimes, typed words don't clearly convey the thoughts of any of us...I really think we're probably, likely, hopefully talking the same thing.

Really?!? I've never run across that problem.