Excessive swinging of elbows

[Hornets222003]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

4. If the offensive player stepped into the defender, then it's a foul. If he merely pivoted within his own space, it's not. If his elbow is truly extended as he pivots, then it's likely a foul; players are not allowed to extend their space with their arms. Normally, this contact should be a foul, but I've seen plays where the defender was hovering over top of the offensive player and got clocked as the player with the ball pivoted. No-call in that case.

As I remember it, there were about three defenders around the ball. The two in front were trying to strip the ball away, so the player pivoted away. The third defender was right behind him also trying to get the ball. I don't think that the player was fully aware of where the third defender was, but I thought that the defender was in the offensive players space.

[BillyMac]

Regarding the table thinking this was a foul. In my thirty years, excessive swinging went from being a violation, to being a technical foul, to again being a violation. That's what may have led to the confusion. I bet that the guys at the table were a bunch of old farts, like me.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I bet that the guys at the table were a bunch of old farts, like me.

[Hornets222003]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Regarding the table thinking this was a foul. In my thirty years, excessive swinging went from being a violation, to being a technical foul, to again being a violation. That's what may have led to the confusion. I bet that the guys at the table were a bunch of old farts, like me.

They were older people. It was an AAU game and parents were working the table, so I'm sure their rule knowledge was limited. Also, they had the HC of the violating team telling them that I was making up calls, so that may have led to more confusion. When I called the violation, I went up with the open hand, gave the excessive elbow mechanic (and said it verbally), and notified my partner of the throw-in spot and direction. I guess they don't see it called much, so they weren't sure what was going on.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Hornets222003

As I remember it, there were about three defenders around the ball. The two in front were trying to strip the ball away, so the player pivoted away. The third defender was right behind him also trying to get the ball. I don't think that the player was fully aware of where the third defender was, but I thought that the defender was in the offensive players space.

I was going to go with a player control until you posted this. Now it would be in the realm of 'have to see'. If the third defender was just playing post defense behind, then what you described would probably be a player control. Since you stated the defender was behind and trying to get the ball, that changes the play. The only thing I would add to maybe think about would be calling a foul on the defender. Since there was contact, and elbow contact is usually pretty visible, my first thought in reading your posts would be to put a whistle on it one way or the other. IMO, this would continue to help keep your game clean, just like your swinging elbow violation did earlier. (Which was a great call btw)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

If the third defender was just playing post defense behind, then what you described would probably be a player control. Since you stated the defender was behind and trying to get the ball, that changes the play.

Why would the defender playing behind the player with the ball change the play in any way?

There is no difference rules-wise whether the defender plays behind, at the side or in front of a player with the ball. In all positions the defender can assume a legal, vertical stance as close as possible to the player with the ball. But no matter how close the defender gets, he still has to allow the player with the ball to make a legal pivot. If contact occurs with the elbow while the player with the ball is making a legal pivot, then the defender did not attain the legal, vertical stance needed by rule.

From Hornet's description, the player with the ball made a legal pivot as per the rule already cited.

Iow, there's nowayinhell it's probably player control just because the defender was behind the player with the ball. You have to judge each individual play by the action of that play solely.

And don't tell me you were taken out of context again either. That boat won't float.

[Judtech]

Nope, not taken out of context. It does not matter whether the post is being full fronted, 3/4 fronted, 1/2 fronted or being played from behind. What DOES change the play is what was posted on the second post from the OP. In the OP he stated that the 3rd defender was behind. If they are behind the post player and the post players elbow crashes into them, that would be a PC. However, inthe second post he stated the defender was behind was "trying to steal the ball". I don't know how you can attempt to steal a ball from behind without reaching through the offensive player. IMO, the actions of the defense changes the result of the play.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Judtech

Nope, not taken out of context. It does not matter whether the post is being full fronted, 3/4 fronted, 1/2 fronted or being played from behind. What DOES change the play is what was posted on the second post from the OP. In the OP he stated that the 3rd defender was behind. If they are behind the post player and the post players elbow crashes into them, that would be a PC. However, inthe second post he stated the defender was behind was "trying to steal the ball". I don't know how you can attempt to steal a ball from behind without reaching through the offensive player. IMO, the actions of the defense changes the result of the play.

he can reach with his arms, but his body/face can be outside A1's space.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by sseltser

he can reach with his arms, but his body/face can be outside A1's space.

Agree completely. But if the player with the ball makes a legal pivot and contacts the defender in the body/face, then that defender HAS to be inside A1's space.

I can't cite a rule where A1's pivot as described by Hornet could be described as illegal.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Judtech

Nope, not taken out of context. It does not matter whether the post is being full fronted, 3/4 fronted, 1/2 fronted or being played from behind. What DOES change the play is what was posted on the second post from the OP. In the OP he stated that the 3rd defender was behind. If they are behind the post player and the post players elbow crashes into them, that would be a PC. However, inthe second post he stated the defender was behind was "trying to steal the ball". I don't know how you can attempt to steal a ball from behind without reaching through the offensive player. IMO, the actions of the defense changes the result of the play.

Nope. Still completely wrong by rule. If a player makes a LEGAL pivot, it doesn't matter wherinthehell the defender is standing. The defender has the responsibility for the contact if ther pivot is LEGAL. And I can't thinl of any rule that would make that pivot illegal, as described by Hornet.

Basic stuff.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope. Still completely wrong by rule. If a player makes a LEGAL pivot, it doesn't matter wherinthehell the defender is standing. The defender has the responsibility for the contact if ther pivot is LEGAL. And I can't thinl of any rule that would make that pivot illegal, as described by Hornet.

Basic stuff.

I would like to actually see a rules reference on that one. I am picturing a post defender standing straight up while the post player pivots with their elbows out and catches the defender right in the chin. The pivot was legal, but not the elbows.

[MathReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

In all positions the defender can assume a legal, vertical stance as close as possible to the player with the ball. But no matter how close the defender gets, he still has to allow the player with the ball to make a legal pivot. If contact occurs with the elbow while the player with the ball is making a legal pivot, then the defender did not attain the legal, vertical stance needed by rule.

Serious question: Is this comment in bold supported by rule? I know 4-23-1 gives us the guideline that there is no minimum distance a defender must give for guarding, as you pointed out. However, I have just never read anything about giving an offensive player room to make a legal pivot.

In regards to the play, I agree with Jurassic in that you have to see these plays on a case by case basis. If elbows are extended in order to create space and they make contact with a defender I am going with PC more times than not. To echo someone else that asked, wasn't this a POE for NCAA last year after the Hansborough incident? I seem to recall Adams viewing this type of contact as a PC foul and possibly intentional.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AustinRef

...To echo someone else that asked, wasn't this a POE for NCAA last year after the Hansborough incident? I seem to recall Adams viewing this type of contact as a PC foul and possibly intentional.

Look above your post.

[MathReferee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Look above your post.

Yeah, timing is awesome...

EDIT: Or, actually reading through the whole thread first woudl help...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Judtech

I was going to go with a player control until you posted this. Now it would be in the realm of 'have to see'. If the third defender was just playing post defense behind, then what you described would probably be a player control. Since you stated the defender was behind and trying to get the ball, that changes the play. The only thing I would add to maybe think about would be calling a foul on the defender. Since there was contact, and elbow contact is usually pretty visible, my first thought in reading your posts would be to put a whistle on it one way or the other. IMO, this would continue to help keep your game clean, just like your swinging elbow violation did earlier. (Which was a great call btw)

Assuming the defense is in the offense's space, and the defender is the only player disadvantaged by the contact, it's a no-call. I'm not going to rub salt in the wound by calling a foul on a defender when all he did was hit the offensive player in the elbow with his face. If it knocks the ball out, call it, but if all it does is knock the defender down, no-call it.