Intentional or excessive intentional

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I close down and try to get in between the 2 players on the floor to keep anything from escalating.

If my partner has great position with the play coming right at him, I have to trust him. I may have blown my whistle but I'm gonna let my partner take the call. If he doesn't want to go with intentional for excessive contact, then he's the one that has to explain it later if an evaluator thought that should have been the correct call.

You?

Thank you, sir. That is precisely what I did. For the record, I did blow my whistle and put a fist up as well, but dropped when I saw that my partner had a call. I felt that the foul was clearly an intentional, but that it was my partner's decision to make as it right in front of him.

This was a person who I had never officiated with before as he was from another area.

This play has been talked about quite a bit in my area as it took place in a State Championship game. That talk has made me question my actions for several months now. It is nice to hear that you support my decision to let him take care of his business.

Our third, who was very unhappy with the decision, came all the way down the court from T to talk with the calling official. He informed him that he could elevate that to an intentional. The L responded that the defender made a play for the ball (by rule not something which prevents the defender from being charged with an X) and therefore he didn't wish to go intentional. I stayed out of that conversation. I caught serious flak for my inaction.

Anyway, as I wrote I've been mulling this over for several months now and this thread provided me with the perfect opportunity to get a straight opinion from someone who has no stake in the matter. Thanks.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Thank you, sir. That is precisely what I did. For the record, I did blow my whistle and put a fist up as well, but dropped when I saw that my partner had a call. I felt that the foul was clearly an intentional, but that it was my partner's decision to make as it right in front of him.

This was a person who I had never officiated with before as he was from another area.

This play has been talked about quite a bit in my area as it took place in a State Championship game. That talk has made me question my actions for several months now. It is nice to hear that you support my decision to let him take care of his business.

Our third, who was very unhappy with the decision, came all the way down the court from T to talk with the calling official. He informed him that he could elevate that to an intentional. The L responded that the defender made a play for the ball (by rule not something which prevents the defender from being charged with an X) and therefore he didn't wish to go intentional. I stayed out of that conversation. I caught serious flak for my inaction.

Anyway, as I wrote I've been mulling this over for several months now and this thread provided me with the perfect opportunity to get a straight opinion from someone who has no stake in the matter. Thanks.

First off, I will say that - imho - you did nothing wrong. Ultimately it is your P's call to live or die with...however, as you pointed out, sometimes we take the sh!t for something that our P screws up. So maybe a better way to handle it would have been to close on the players keeping your fist in the air so your L knows you've got something and the two of you can communicate a little. If he still decides to stick with his call, then he gets the heat because you gave him your information.

Again, I want to make it clear (because of our past history) that I am not saying you did anything wrong. Simply trying to put a different angle on it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Thank you, sir. That is precisely what I did. For the record, I did blow my whistle and put a fist up as well, but dropped when I saw that my partner had a call. I felt that the foul was clearly an intentional, but that it was my partner's decision to make as it right in front of him.

This was a person who I had never officiated with before as he was from another area.

This play has been talked about quite a bit in my area as it took place in a State Championship game. That talk has made me question my actions for several months now. It is nice to hear that you support my decision to let him take care of his business.

Our third, who was very unhappy with the decision, came all the way down the court from T to talk with the calling official. He informed him that he could elevate that to an intentional. The L responded that the defender made a play for the ball (by rule not something which prevents the defender from being charged with an X) and therefore he didn't wish to go intentional. I stayed out of that conversation. I caught serious flak for my inaction.

Anyway, as I wrote I've been mulling this over for several months now and this thread provided me with the perfect opportunity to get a straight opinion from someone who has no stake in the matter. Thanks.

Fwiw just a coupla thoughts....

- the rule book couldn't be clearer, as you well know. Once your partner makes the call, neither you or the trail can change the call. If he doesn't want to change it, even after getting some input, that's it.
- whatinthehell was the trail doing watching a fast break like that? Who was watching the other 8 players in HIS primary?

Again this is jmo, but I don't know what more you could have done on that particular play. You did your job. It sureashell wasn't anything I'd ever worry about.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I did blow my whistle and put a fist up as well, but dropped when I saw that my partner had a call. I felt that the foul was clearly an intentional, but that it was my partner's decision to make as it right in front of him.

Our third, who was very unhappy with the decision, came all the way down the court from T to talk with the calling official. He informed him that he could elevate that to an intentional. The L responded that the defender made a play for the ball (by rule not something which prevents the defender from being charged with an X) and therefore he didn't wish to go intentional. I stayed out of that conversation. I caught serious flak for my inaction.

Not that you asked, but since you DID put it out there...
The first paragraph is a nice example of the two schools of thought. Do you go with what you feel is clearly an intentional? Or do you let your partner live and die with the call? This is, with all due respect to Jurassic (and yes I do have respect for him) where calling into questions someones 'nadatudinal constitution' is not the best way to evaluate what transpires. For an argument can be made that for NEVADA to have 'shown his' he should have come right in with an X b/c he clearly felt the foul was intentional. Conversely, you can say that he IS 'showing his" by letting his crew live or die with the call from the L, regardless of what his feelings are about the play.
I don't have problem with the way NEVADA handled the situation. I probably would have handled it differently, but so what. Does that make me right and him wrong or vice versa? Nope. And I certainly would respect his decision and explaination and let it go at that. (OK, MAYBE a quick barb here and there, but I would expect the same in return!) Based on the play description, the person I would want some more info from would be the "T". What if any additional information did they provide the calling official with other than "You can upgrade that"? If that is all they did then I have a question as to why even bother? THAT would be what makes a crew look bad and causes problems.

Evaluator "So what did you say at your little confab after that hard foul?"
T: " I was letting him know that he could upgrade the foul if he wanted to." Evaluator "Did you give him any reason that he might want to do that?"
T: "No, just wanted to let him know".
Evaluator (thinking to self) - He must be the guy who keeps asking if I want to "Super Size" my order for only .89 more! As if I didn't already know that!!)

At least NEVADA was operating according to his principles.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Judtech

... where calling into questions someones 'nadatudinal constitution' is not the best way to evaluate what transpires. For an argument can be made that for NEVADA to have 'shown his' he should have come right in with an X b/c he clearly felt the foul was intentional.

That's the gist of the criticism I've heard. People wanted me to come take the call because of what I felt the proper decision was.

My problem with doing that is that it makes my partner look really weak and the coaches then believe that he needs me to call the game for him. I've just ruined his credibility for the rest of the game.

Bottom line: Since the play was clearly not in my primary area, I didn't wish to undermine my partner. I know how I would feel if a play happened right in front of me and here came a guy running in from the other side of the court.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The problem with doing that is that it makes it look like my partner needs me to call the game for him and that he is too weak to make a tough call.

Since the play was clearly not in my primary area, I didn't wish to undermine my partner. I know how I would feel if a play happened right in front of me and here came a guy running in from the other side of the court.

If it's done a couple of times a game, and done in ordinary situations, then yes, it would indeed look like you're calling the game for your partner.

But if I made a call that seemed obvious to others that should be different, I would want my partner(s) coming to me to give me that info I somehow missed. I would be just as pissed that my partners let me make a dumb-a$$ call as I would be if they were consistently making calls in my primary.

Sure, it's a fine line. And if there's any doubt, don't do it. But if it's definite, tell me how anyone thinks less of a crew when they get together to get a rather obvious call right?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

If it's done a couple of times a game, and done in ordinary situations, then yes, it would indeed look like you're calling the game for your partner.

But if I made a call that seemed obvious to others that should be different, I would want my partner(s) coming to me to give me that info I somehow missed. I would be just as pissed that my partners let me make a dumb-a$$ call as I would be if they were consistently making calls in my primary.

Sure, it's a fine line. And if there's any doubt, don't do it. But if it's definite, tell me how anyone thinks less of a crew when they get together to get a rather obvious call right one official comes in and overrides the decision of another?

Since my comment which you quoted was not about getting together and discussing the call, but made in the context one official going ahead and making the harsher decision right away, I've altered your post to pose the pertinent question.

Remember in my case, the calling official actually was consulted by a partner and he chose to stick with his original decision. As it turned out the only way that an X was getting called on this particular play was for another official to have gone ahead and made the call right under this guy's nose. That's not something that I'm comfortable with doing.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Since my comment which you quoted was not about getting together and discussing the call, but made in the context one official going ahead and making the harsher decision right away, I've altered your post to pose the pertinent question.

Remember in my case, the calling official actually was consulted by a partner and he chose to stick with his original decision. As it turned out the only way that an X was getting called on this particular play was for another official to have gone ahead and made the call right under this guy's nose. That's not something that I'm comfortable with doing.

I agree, making another call over your partner's is not the right way to handle it. Also, is it possible the L didn't give the T's info much credibility, considering it was being given from a long way away, and you, being closer, were not coming in at all? That might've been part of his thought process. Perhaps if you had come in as well, asking if he had seen the contact on the face, and did he want to consider it an intentional, then perhaps that would've given the T's info a little more credence. Sure, there's always the chance the L would've stuck with the original call, and that's fine. But at least you would've given your info, rather than holding it back.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Since my comment which you quoted was not about getting together and discussing the call, but made in the context one official going ahead and making the harsher decision right away, I've altered your post to pose the pertinent question.

Remember in my case, the calling official actually was consulted by a partner and he chose to stick with his original decision. As it turned out the only way that an X was getting called on this particular play was for another official to have gone ahead and made the call right under this guy's nose. That's not something that I'm comfortable with doing.

I don't think that is necessarily true. If the T comes in from way in the backcourt, I'm probably not going to listen to him/her either...however, if my C - who was right there on top of the play also - comes running in with their fist in the air and tells me "Partner, I really think we need to go Intentional on this one" immediately, then there is a good chance I'm going with the Int. No one is over ruling anyone, and none of us are promoting that idea...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I agree, making another call over your partner's is not the right way to handle it. Also, is it possible the L didn't give the T's info much credibility, considering it was being given from a long way away, and you, being closer, were not coming in at all? That might've been part of his thought process. Perhaps if you had come in as well, asking if he had seen the contact on the face, and did he want to consider it an intentional, then perhaps that would've given the T's info a little more credence. Sure, there's always the chance the L would've stuck with the original call, and that's fine. But at least you would've given your info, rather than holding it back.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I don't think that is necessarily true. If the T comes in from way in the backcourt, I'm probably not going to listen to him/her either...however, if my C - who was right there on top of the play also - comes running in with their fist in the air and tells me "Partner, I really think we need to go Intentional on this one" immediately, then there is a good chance I'm going with the Int. No one is over ruling anyone, and none of us are promoting that idea...

I want to thank both of you for your thoughts. We seem to be in agreement that the C simply taking this call from the L is not the right thing to do, even if the C has it as intentional and the L does not. (Sidenote: Would we feel the same way if the C thought it was flagrant?)

Therefore, I feel good about not immediately making this call over in my partner's area. The last little thing which I have been pondering is should I also have gone over and attempted to persuade the L to go with the X along with the T. Let me state exactly what I was thinking on the court and you guys can comment, but first allow me to write that I have all of the respect in the world for the official who was the T on this play. He is a former D1 mens official and I have worked with him on a couple of occasions with nothing but the best results. So despite his positioning deep in the backcourt (perhaps FT line extended), he viewed the foul with similar thoughts to mine. [And yes, probably at the expense of not closely watching the other eight players back there with him.]

Now right as the foul occurs, I think, "Oh, that was excessive." Then I progressed to other thoughts such as: Does he have it? Ok, he's got the call, but I don't know if he is calling intentional or not because he is from somewhere else and I am not familiar with his mechanics. Perhaps he doesn't know to use the crossed arms signal or maybe they don't do that in his area. I'll make sure that the players are okay and that nothing further happens. [They get up without incident.] Now just as I consider going over and asking the L if he has that as intentional, I see the T come down to speak with him as he is heading to table and they meet at the 28 foot line, so I think, "Okay, [name deleted] has this." I can hear the entire conversation while standing on the other side of the FT lane and keeping an eye on the players. He says almost exactly what I would have said, so I stay where I am. Once I understood that the L was not going to upgrade to intentional, I didn't really think that I could lend any more to the situation than the T already did. At that point I wasn't going to chase him to the table and further hold up the proceedings. I just let it go and moved on. He had already conversed with one of his partners. It never occurred to me that he wouldn't accept information from this guy because he was the T at the time, but would from me because I happened to be the C. I seriously doubt that crossed the mind of the calling official either.
I view the T as a very strong official and felt that the message had been delivered loud and clear.

On the other hand, I can't help but think that if all three of us had gotten together that while it would have been obvious to everyone in the building that the two of us were attempting to alter his decision, and from that perspective I doubt that would have been a good thing for the rest of the game, it is entirely possible that the two of us combined would have been successful in getting the final decision to be an intentional foul.

So the big question is would it have been worth it from a credibility standpoint as well as risking this partner going into the tank for the remainder of the game just to reward the shooting team with one more possession?

While I don't believe that the absolute correct call was made on this particular play, perhaps a few good calls later in the game were made by this individual solely because he had the confidence that his partners will willing to support him and trust him to make calls in his area. In the end, that may have had more impact upon the game.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's the gist of the criticism I've heard. People wanted me to come take the call because of what I felt the proper decision was.

My problem with doing that is that it makes my partner look really weak and the coaches then believe that he needs me to call the game for him. I've just ruined his credibility for the rest of the game.

Bottom line: Since the play was clearly not in my primary area, I didn't wish to undermine my partner. I know how I would feel if a play happened right in front of me and here came a guy running in from the other side of the court.

And this is the beauty and difficulty of officiating. In this play, you firmly believe that it would look bad IF you went in. There are others (and you have apparently ran into them) who firmly belive you look bad if you do NOT go in. IMO, the key is to respect the decision either way.
Again, IMO, the key take away is not THIS play, but a larger issue. Simply put, it is something that should be addressed pregame, especially if you are working with a new crew. For instance, let's say Jurrassic, Nevada and I are working a game together. (I will take a moment to let the EMT's revive Jurassic) ...... During the pregame, regardless who the R is, I would bring into the conversation how we want to handle coverage, double whistles, T's, and 'anything funky' Knowing that their school of thought is different than mine SHOULD not be a problem, and I should be expected to adapt. Conversely, if NEVADA was working with myself and MM, then he should feel comfortable and/or not get offended (which I am thinking he wouldn't) if we handle those situation different then he 'normally' does. (On a side note, if there is ambivelance, the R rules!)
Again, to me, it is not about backbone, gonadal fortitude or machismo. It is having 3 people wearing polyesther (or a nice micro mesh) being on the same team, being situationally aware and respecting one another.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My problem with doing that is that it makes my partner look really weak and the coaches then believe that he needs me to call the game for him. I've just ruined his credibility for the rest of the game.

Bottom line: Since the play was clearly not in my primary area, I didn't wish to undermine my partner. I know how I would feel if a play happened right in front of me and here came a guy running in from the other side of the court.

Logical thinking imo.

[rockyroad]

Nevada, I will say again that I do not think you did anything wrong. And anyone who is giving you grief about this situation is either a friend of the L in your OP, or is just out to get you for some reason.

You can't go in AFTER your third had a conversation with the L. That would look bad all around and would possibly piss off the L and/or cause him to disappear as you said.

My only thought is what I posted before: If you had IMMEDIATELY come across with fist raised and said something about Intentional right then and there, maybe he would have gone with it. Maybe not, but at least your critics would be silenced (as they should be anyway for crying out loud).

It's one of those situations where some people (like deranged, psychotic assignors) blame you for something that your P screwed up because "You should be able to take care of business in your games". Not that that ever happened to me.

Water under the bridge.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Thank you, sir. That is precisely what I did. For the record, I did blow my whistle and put a fist up as well, but dropped when I saw that my partner had a call. I felt that the foul was clearly an intentional, but that it was my partner's decision to make as it right in front of him.

This was a person who I had never officiated with before as he was from another area.

This play has been talked about quite a bit in my area as it took place in a State Championship game. That talk has made me question my actions for several months now. It is nice to hear that you support my decision to let him take care of his business.

Our third, who was very unhappy with the decision, came all the way down the court from T to talk with the calling official. He informed him that he could elevate that to an intentional. The L responded that the defender made a play for the ball (by rule not something which prevents the defender from being charged with an X) and therefore he didn't wish to go intentional. I stayed out of that conversation. I caught serious flak for my inaction.

Anyway, as I wrote I've been mulling this over for several months now and this thread provided me with the perfect opportunity to get a straight opinion from someone who has no stake in the matter. Thanks.

Nevada, I'm only giving you my perspective from the NCAA-W side, which certainly may different than the philosophies of NFHS and NCAA-M. If I was the L in that play, and I found out after the fact you saw the hit to the face and didn't come in to tell me, I would be disappointed in you. In fact, in your play as described, since you had secondary coverage on that play I would've taken your information a little more seriously than from the T who was way behind the play.

Maybe because of the angle, the L didn't see the hit to the face, and giving him that info could've changed his mind on the call. Maybe he did see the hit, and still considered it not excessive enough to make it an intentional. Either way, going to him in that case could only help the situation, and not hurt it in any way. You were right in giving him the initial call, because it sounds like it was in his primary. It would've been wrong for you to come running in with the "X" because you possibly disagreed with the initial call. Also, if there was any reason you did not see the entire play, then you would be correct in not going over to offer any information. That should only happen of you 103% sure.

But, if you did in fact see the entire play, and it seemed obvious to you that it should've been an intentional based on the excessive contact to the face, then you should've gone over and given that info to the L. It would still be his call to keep or change, but at least you've supplied him with all the info needed.