catch your own pass?

[eroe39]

A1 grabs a defensive rebound. He then bounce passes to A2 who doesn't turn his head to see the pass. A1 now runs up to this slow bounce pass and grabs it. Is this legal in high school or college, to catch your own pass? I know it is illegal in the pro game but wasn't sure what the high school and college rule is.

[Ref in PA]

I am unaware of any rule in any league that prevents the play as you describe it. Because it was a bounce pass, A1 can track it down. It should be interpreted as a dribble. So once A1 has caught the ball again, he/she no longer has a dribble.

[mick]

Originally posted by eroe39
A1 grabs a defensive rebound. He then bounce passes to A2 who doesn't turn his head to see the pass. A1 now runs up to this slow bounce pass and grabs it. Is this legal in high school or college, to catch your own pass? I know it is illegal in the pro game but wasn't sure what the high school and college rule is.

Rule 15-3 The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor.
Rule 15-4 The dribble ends when:

a. the dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.

c. the dribble simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.

Thus, throwing the ball to start the dribble is good, but grabbing the ball ends it.
The dribbler may however continue his dribble by using one hand after the ball strikes the floor.

mick

[ChuckElias]

Eli, what's the rule reference in the NBA book that makes this a violation? I'm not doubting you, I just don't have my NBA books handy. Is there a play in the Questions & Answers? I don't remember this play being addressed directly. Help me out?

Chuck

[ChuckElias]

Eli, after that last post, I realized I was just being lazy, so I went and dug the books out of my bag. And I found something interesting. The play in question is discussed in play #80 in the Q&A:

Player A1 secures possession of the ball and:
(1) throws the ball over his opponent's head, or
(2) throws the ball a long distance out in front of him.
In both (1) and (2) he bats the ball to the floor and starts his dribble. Is this legal?
Yes in both (1) and (2). Player A1 cannot catch the ball in either case then start his dribble. Should he catch the ball, he would be guilty of a traveling violation for passing the ball to himself.

RULE 4 - SECTION III

The interesting part is that there's nothing in Rule 10, Section XIV (re: traveling) that would indicate that the play we're discussing is a violation. If you read through the traveling rule, there's nothing about catching a ball after that same player has passed it -- unless you consider that throwing to be a shot attempt (which it obviously is not).

Additionally, if you read the dribbling definition (Rule 4, Section III), then the play we're discussing perfectly fits the definition of a legal dribble. "A dribble is movement of the ball, caused by a player in control, who throws or taps the ball into the air or to the floor". So far, that's exactly what you described in the initial post.

"The dribble ends when the dribbler:
(1) Touches the ball simultaneiously with both hands."

And that describes how the play ended. So by the definitions of dribbling and traveling, there's no violation that I can see. Yet the Q&A clearly says that it's traveling.

Am I missing something obvious, or is the Q&A ruling simply an ad hoc rule change?

Chuck

[Ref in PA]

The Q&A play #80 you describe says the play is legal. What it says is illegal is to catch the ball and then start a dribble. To me that is double dribble. However, if the throw over the opponent's head was caught on a fly (without the ball bouncing) I would have a travel violation because I cannot image this play without both feet moving in order to catch the ball on a fly. Maybe that is what the book means when it said: "Should he catch the ball, he would be guilty of a traveling violation for passing the ball to himself."

[eroe39]

Chuck, ad hoc, wow, never heard of that. Anyway, I can't give you a good answer for why it is in the casebook but not the rulebook, there is a lot of stuff in our casebook that is not in the rulebook, go figure.

Originally posted by Ref in PA
The Q&A play #80 you describe says the play is legal. What it says is illegal is to catch the ball and then start a dribble. To me that is double dribble. However, if the throw over the opponent's head was caught on a fly (without the ball bouncing) I would have a travel violation because I cannot image this play without both feet moving in order to catch the ball on a fly. Maybe that is what the book means when it said: "Should he catch the ball, he would be guilty of a traveling violation for passing the ball to himself."

Ref in P.A., whether it is a pass that touches the floor or a pass that is caught on the fly, anytime a player then grabs it or catches it it is a traveling violation. Now if the player runs up to the ball and starts his dribble with it by batting it that is OK. We have had several conversations in our meetings in the past about this. I can understand why you might think that from #80 but just focus on the last sentence, "Should he catch the ball, he would be guilty of a traveling violation for passing the ball to himself."

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by eroe39


Ref in P.A., whether it is a pass that touches the floor or a pass that is caught on the fly, anytime a player then grabs it or catches it it is a traveling violation.

You're talking pro rules, no? If A1 catches his own bounce pass under ncaa & nfhs that constitutes a
dribble so it can never be a travel. But even #80 doesn't address the bounced self-pass under pro rules. Is there something else I'm missing? Eli? Chuck?

[ChuckElias]

Ok, after re-reading the play that I posted (Q&A #80), I think it doesn't really have anything to do with Eli's original post. I think Q&A 80 is addressing the question of a player lobbing a pass over an opponent's head and then running to catch it on the fly; whereas Eli's post is specifically about a bounce pass. I was trying to fit the Q&A play to Eli's scenario, but upon further review, it clearly doesn't apply.

Which then leaves my original question. . . what is the rules basis for calling Eli's play a violation? I'm back to being stumped. Sorry

Chuck

[Sleeper]

As a new official, I would like to add another wrinkle to the question: Does it matter if he passes with one hand as opposed to two?

I would think (and that may be my problem) that if the pass is made with two hands and then picked up, that would constitute a double dribble, right? Maybe I'm over-analyzing, but this seems logical.

[mick]

Originally posted by Sleeper
As a new official, I would like to add another wrinkle to the question: Does it matter if he passes with one hand as opposed to two?

I would think (and that may be my problem) that if the pass is made with two hands and then picked up, that would constitute a double dribble, right? Maybe I'm over-analyzing, but this seems logical.

Sleeper,

Number of hands used to pass - no effect
Number of hands causing ball to be at rest - either way, dribble ends
Number of hands to continue the dribble - just one allowed

mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick

Sleeper,

Number of hands used to pass - no effect
Number of hands causing ball to be at rest - either way, dribble ends
Number of hands to continue the dribble - just one allowed

mick

And number of hands used to *start* a dribble - no effect.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I would like to thank Eli and Chuck for this discussion, because it shows how much a like the vast majority of the NFHS/NCAA, NBA/WNBA, and FIBA rules are a like and the real difference is in how we apply the rules at the various levels of play.

[eroe39]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Originally posted by eroe39


Ref in P.A., whether it is a pass that touches the floor or a pass that is caught on the fly, anytime a player then grabs it or catches it it is a traveling violation.

You're talking pro rules, no? If A1 catches his own bounce pass under ncaa & nfhs that constitutes a
dribble so it can never be a travel. But even #80 doesn't address the bounced self-pass under pro rules. Is there something else I'm missing? Eli? Chuck?


[Ok, after re-reading the play that I posted (Q&A #80), I think it doesn't really have anything to do with Eli's original post. I think Q&A 80 is addressing the question of a player lobbing a pass over an opponent's head and then running to catch it on the fly; whereas Eli's post is specifically about a bounce pass. I was trying to fit the Q&A play to Eli's scenario, but upon further review, it clearly doesn't apply.

Which then leaves my original question. . . what is the rules basis for calling Eli's play a violation? I'm back to being stumped. Sorry

Chuck

Chuck and Dan_ref, focus on the sentence that says "Should he catch the ball he would be guilty of a traveling violation for passing the ball to himself." Don't try to read into whether the pass hits the floor or he catches it in the air. Anytime you pass to yourself in the pro game it is traveling, doesn't matter if the pass rolls along the floor, bounces three times, or is caught on the fly. The same applies to catching your own shot. "A player who attempts a field goal may not be the first to touch the ball if it fails to touch the backboard, basket ring, or another player." It doesn't matter here if the ball is caught on the fly or if it lands on the floor, so consider this the same as catching your own pass. They should put this in the rulebook, instead of just that one sentence in Casebook play #80 to clarify it better. I was very confused at first with this rule too but had it explained to be by some veterans and heard Joe, our boss, mention this play in meetings as well.

__________________
/QUOTE]

[hawkk]

And what is the difference between "passing to yourself" and "starting a dribble"?

One nitpicky point on the discussion about picking up or dribbling a ball after it bounces where it was originally a pass to someone else: if the thrower lifted a pivot foot to make the pass, then it would be a travel.

Trivia: Didn't the dribble originate as a self-pass in a game that did not allow for running with the ball?