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Old Tue Apr 06, 2010, 09:58am
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Clark Kellogg

In a field where announcers often get rules wrong, I've always found Clark Kellogg refreshingly correct with his analysis. He's one of the few that I've heard use correct phrases, such as "legal guarding position" and "ON the back." (He won me over when he correctly pointed out that "over the back" is not a foul.)

That said, I cringed a bit after Duke's Scheyer drew a charge. I believe the official had it right, as LGP was clear before contact. Kellogg disagreed, saying that Scheyer went "into the path" of the dribbler. Kellogg used this "into the path" phrase later that night, too.

Before I go off and opine how such myths make our jobs tougher, I should appeal to the veterans of this forum. Is there anything in the NCAA rules that says it's a blocking foul if you go "into the path" of a dribbler? (Aside, of course, from when a shooter goes airborne, at which point LGP cannot be established.)
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Old Tue Apr 06, 2010, 10:01am
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Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
In a field where announcers often get rules wrong, I've always found Clark Kellogg refreshingly correct with his analysis. He's one of the few that I've heard use correct phrases, such as "legal guarding position" and "ON the back." (He won me over when he correctly pointed out that "over the back" is not a foul.)

That said, I cringed a bit after Duke's Scheyer drew a charge. I believe the official had it right, as LGP was clear before contact. Kellogg disagreed, saying that Scheyer went "into the path" of the dribbler. Kellogg used this "into the path" phrase later that night, too.

Before I go off and opine how such myths make our jobs tougher, I should appeal to the veterans of this forum. Is there anything in the NCAA rules that says it's a blocking foul if you go "into the path" of a dribbler? (Aside, of course, from when a shooter goes airborne, at which point LGP cannot be established.)
Personally, I thought there was a charge that was a horrible call. I don't know if it's the same one you're talking about as the player clearly wasn't a dribbler when it happened.

The shooter was already airborne and the Duke defender subsequently slid sideways to draw contact in the torso. I thought that was a no-brainer block that, for whatever reason, got missed.
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Old Tue Apr 06, 2010, 10:06am
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Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
Personally, I thought there was a charge that was a horrible call. I don't know if it's the same one you're talking about as the player clearly wasn't a dribbler when it happened.

The shooter was already airborne and the Duke defender subsequently slid sideways to draw contact in the torso. I thought that was a no-brainer block that, for whatever reason, got missed.
I agree, for the same reason. Scheyer slid to his right AFTER the shooter became airborne. But, it was bang bang.
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Old Tue Apr 06, 2010, 10:28am
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Originally Posted by DLH17 View Post
I agree, for the same reason. Scheyer slid to his right AFTER the shooter became airborne. But, it was bang bang.
And it was called by the L who was in the middle of a rotation at the time...that's probably why it was mis-called (imo).
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Old Tue Apr 06, 2010, 10:34am
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Originally Posted by rockyroad View Post
And it was called by the L who was in the middle of a rotation at the time...that's probably why it was mis-called (imo).
Definitely why it was missed. Thats very hard to see normally, let alone during a rotation. The crew had a great game. That being said, I'm sure Cahill is going to want that call back if he sees it on film.
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Old Tue Apr 06, 2010, 10:46am
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Originally Posted by ajs8207 View Post
Definitely why it was missed. Thats very hard to see normally, let alone during a rotation. The crew had a great game. That being said, I'm sure Cahill is going to want that call back if he sees it on film.
I'm assuming the L hustling towards the play since it was on the "near" block.
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Old Tue Apr 06, 2010, 11:07am
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There was a charge called against Butler in the second half that Kellogg didn't like because the Duke player (don't remember who) "jumped into the path". It seems to me that Kellogg believes LGP can't be obtained by hopping into a guarding position. Bainsey, I believe this is the same call you're talking about.
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Old Tue Apr 06, 2010, 11:08am
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Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
There was a charge called against Butler in the second half that Kellogg didn't like because the Duke player (don't remember who) "jumped into the path". It seems to me that Kellogg believes LGP can't be obtained by hopping into a guarding position. Bainsey, I believe this is the same call you're talking about.
In this case, it was an accurate statement, as the Duke player jumped into the path of someone who was already airborne.
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Old Tue Apr 06, 2010, 11:10am
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Are we talking about the same play though? The one I saw had a Duke player coming in under the basket, moving to his left. I didn't think the Butler player was already airborne in this play. If he was, then agreed, it was a bad call.
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Old Tue Apr 06, 2010, 11:26am
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Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
Are we talking about the same play though? The one I saw had a Duke player coming in under the basket, moving to his left. I didn't think the Butler player was already airborne in this play. If he was, then agreed, it was a bad call.
No...two diff plays. The "erroneous" call involved Scheyer as the defender who slid to his right.
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Old Tue Apr 06, 2010, 11:30am
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Welpe is right. If the shooter was indeed airborne, it was a bad call, but I was certain that he wasn't. And we may not be all talking about the same play. It's hard to determine that without posting the video.

Either way, isn't the phrase "into the path" probably creating a rule myth? A defender can indeed move into the path of a dribbler, provided LGP is obtained and maintained throughout (and the shooter isn't airborne, of course)?
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Old Tue Apr 06, 2010, 12:09pm
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I think one of the plays being talked about was Howard (that is the guard's name right?) driving from the right side. Kellogg or the other guy was initially talking about the player being in the imaginary area under the hoop. If I'm not mistaken, Eades made that call. The basket went in and if it would have counted with a free throw that could have been huge. I guess every call like this could have been huge.

Eades also called a foul by Scheyer in the first half on the floor. The (quick) replay showed the Butler guard clearly beginning the shooting motion.
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Old Tue Apr 06, 2010, 12:15pm
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Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
Personally, I thought there was a charge that was a horrible call. I don't know if it's the same one you're talking about as the player clearly wasn't a dribbler when it happened.

The shooter was already airborne and the Duke defender subsequently slid sideways to draw contact in the torso. I thought that was a no-brainer block that, for whatever reason, got missed.
There was one by that big goof, Zoubeck, that they called a charge that I thought was a definite block. That might be the one you're thinking of; it came from the left side. On the replay, it looked like he definitely slid sideways. It would have been his fifth foul too.
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Old Tue Apr 06, 2010, 12:22pm
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
There was one by that big goof, Zoubeck, that they called a charge that I thought was a definite block. That might be the one you're thinking of; it came from the left side. On the replay, it looked like he definitely slid sideways. It would have been his fifth foul too.
Agree. Moved his upper body into the shooter.
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Old Tue Apr 06, 2010, 12:41pm
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Originally Posted by tomegun View Post
I think one of the plays being talked about was Howard (that is the guard's name right?) driving from the right side. Kellogg or the other guy was initially talking about the player being in the imaginary area under the hoop. If I'm not mistaken, Eades made that call. The basket went in and if it would have counted with a free throw that could have been huge. I guess every call like this could have been huge.

Eades also called a foul by Scheyer in the first half on the floor. The (quick) replay showed the Butler guard clearly beginning the shooting motion.
Yes, that one.

And I was also disappointed by the one you mention in the second paragraph. This "on the floor" crap won't end until the officials at the top of the game do better at getting these right.
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