One year later...

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge
If I learned anything from my degree in Political Science, is that is that in political discussions are based on theory and ideals sometimes more than fact. This conversation is no different. It is just how you look at the situation.

Peace

Maybe you should have gotten a degree in ethics instead, since what we are discussing has nothing to do with
politics. The concept of courage has a strong component of
moral intent. Immoral acts are never couragous. Morality
is never relative.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Maybe you should have gotten a degree in ethics instead, since what we are discussing has nothing to do with
politics. The concept of courage has a strong component of
moral intent. Immoral acts are never couragous. Morality
is never relative.

Sure, this has absolutely nothing to do with politics.

Tell that to the President and the Congress and I will believe what you say.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Originally posted by Dan_ref

Sure, this has absolutely nothing to do with politics.

Tell that to the President and the Congress and I will believe what you say.

Peace

In fact this has nothing to do with politics or any form of
government. Sadly you are incapable of understanding such basic human ideas as morality or ethics, or for that matter
anything outside of your immediate experience. Your focus
is on the mundane, your ideas are trivial.

[JRutledge]

It is all about politics. Everything that happen on September 11th and before and after is about politics. Not because I say it is, because it is.

When President Bush speaks, it is about politics. When President Clinton Spoke on Letterman, it was about Politics. When Israel goes after the Palestinians, it is about politics. If we go to war, it will be about politics.

People from 84 countries died in the World Trade Center. They did not hit the Statue of Liberty. They did not attack the Sears Tower. The World Trade Center Bombing years before was not because it was just in the United States, it was hit then and on September 11th because it was a symbol. It was the WORLD TRADE CENTER!!! This attack was symbolic of a way of life, not just about people that were in a building. We are infidels to these people not because of our religious affliction, we are infidels because of our economic policy. We are because of out political system. We are infidels because of our freedom. Sorry my friend, it is all about politics to them and us. You are right it is not simple, nothing in life worth understanding is. But it sure is not just about courage or cowardly behavior.

You ask our President and our representatives if that is trival. We are not talking about going to war with Iraq over trival issues.

You will learn soon enough.

Peace

[rockyroad]

When Israel goes after the Palestinians - it is about security and safety for their people and their lives...if we go after Saddam, it will be for the same reason...read the Preamble to the Constitution - "provide for the common defense"...if that is your definition of "politics" and the political game, so be it...I happen to think it is common sense. We know they are planning something again...let's get them before they can pull off another 9-11...and please don't call them "suicide bombers" because that glorifies what they are doing - murdering innocent women and children who have never done anything to harm them...that is not courage by any definition...good grief!

[AK ref SE]

I'll throw my two cents in!

Whether this is about politics, religion, what was the worst war ever discussion. Plain and simple this was a devastating act against mainly innocent people!

I am in the military and have been for twenty years, Desert Storm and now this, to me it is no different, I do what the President tells me to do (or my superiors).

Whatever words are being used in this thread, have at it complain about who's opinion is better or more right. The people that are doing that are spending way to much energy instead of doing something productive about it. Like telling a cop or a firemen or a Armed forces person that you stand behind them. I lost a friend on 9-11.
So whatever ya call it. It was a horrific event that i would not want repeated.

If you want to debate with me on this don't!!! Spend your time thanking people who are trying to make the Country we live safe.

Enough Said!

AK ref SE

[JRutledge]

I see people are just as uptight about this discussion as any other.

The reality about this discussion is it is just that, a discussion. We are talking about political issues, moral issues and deep rooted values.

I think people need to go back and read the words that I said about this to begin with (rocky) and see I never said a thing about courage of people that took plane into a building. Just because you are not a coward does not make you courageous. It might mean you are just evil and murderous. It could even mean that you are just cold hearted and spinless.

Many of us lost people that we knew or associated with in the World Trade Center. My Mother had a childhood friend and collegue lost her sister in the building in New York. They never found her body or any remains to identify. Just just vanashed from the building like she was never there. Now you tell me what I think of the actions in New York.

But that is why I love these discussions and we need to have further discussions about this on this board and in many other places. Because when we go to fight this war and more bodies come back to this country for this war, I sure hope this country knows why. Better yet, I hope this country is on the same page of what we are fighting for and what we are dying for. Rocky you are correct we should and can protect ourselves from hostile enemies, but I do not see how Saddam Hussian is going to help what happen in NY, Washington or Pennsylvania. But either way we better understand what type of enemy we are fighting, because when more and more bodies come home to the United States, that we do not wavier like Vietnam (which I have relatives that served). This is not like the Gulf War, things might be more messy if we go all the way to Baghdad (sp?).

Peace

[Sleeper]

Isn't this a basketball officals board? I love the political discussion and all, but what if A is dribbling down the court, and as he his going out of bounds he is flashed by a cheerleader. He passes the ball to a teammate before landing on the coach's grandmother, sitting in her wheel chair and enjoying a Beam and Coke in a public school gym. The teammate is the process of shooting when the electricity goes out, and when the lights come back on someone has stolen the mascots head and put it on the shooters left foot, who is lying on the floor after being hit in the head with a large salmon and the shot went in because you could hear the swish of the net in the dark......

Seriously, though, topics can be debated without the emotion. Is this about politics, YES. There are two societies who have diametrically opposed reasons for existance. One believes in freedom and liberty, the other does not. It this a moral issues, YES. The politics of the situation led to a morally reprehensible decision by the terrorists. Should we bomb Iraq and their buddies into the stone age, YES. I think we bomb a big enough crater that we can fill it with water and have a small inland sea or really big bass lake, which ever comes first.

Rut, I do have to disagree with you on one point. Sometimes, as the country we are, we have to stand up for what is right. Not because it is politically expedient, but because the world is a better place because we do. Politics or not, the world is NOT a better place with people like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Sadam Hussein and Yassir Arafat in it. They all have show a blatant disregard for human life. If they are so high on the status of martyrdom, then the only neighborly thing to do is arrange the meeting for them.

[Edited by Sleeper on Sep 13th, 2002 at 12:00 PM]

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Sleeper
Isn't this a basketball officals board? I love the political discussion and all, but what if A is dribbling down the court, and as he his going out of bounds he is flashed by a cheerleader. He passes the ball to a teammate before landing on the coach's grandmother, sitting in her wheel chair and enjoying a Beam and Coke in a public school gym. The teammate is the process of shooting when the electricity goes out, and when the lights come back on someone has stolen the mascots head and put it on the shooters left foot, who is lying on the floor after being hit in the head with a large salmon and the shot went in because you could hear the swish of the net in the dark......

And what, exactly, does all that have to do with wether or not B3 was being closely guarded by A4???

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Sleeper


Rut, I do have to disagree with you on one point. Sometimes, as the country we are, we have to stand up for what is right. Not because it is politically expedient, but because the world is a better place because we do. Politics or not, the world is NOT a better place with people like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Sadam Hussein and Yassir Arafat in it. They all have show a blatant disregard for human life. If they are so high on the status of martyrdom, then the only neighborly thing to do is arrange the meeting for them.

[Edited by Sleeper on Sep 13th, 2002 at 12:00 PM]

The only thing you and I disagree about, is that we disagree. Of course we have to do something. Well maybe we do disagree about how it should happen but I never have said do nothing. And even with the world without all those leaders you state, we do not know who is behind them or their beliefs. Considering the history of that region and those groups, we might be in bigger trouble if they leave. But then again, that is another opinion that many hold.

God Bless us all.

Peace

[LarryS]

Originally posted by AK ref SE

I am in the military and have been for twenty years, Desert Storm and now this, to me it is no different, I do what the President tells me to do (or my superiors).

AK ref SE

I have always held that people like you should have their opinions listened to very closely because they are putting their life on the line for me and my family. I have a brother-in-law in the military so I don't make this comment lightly...I hope he tells you to go kick their ***!

Also, as far as I'm concerned we are at the point that why they did it is irrelevant.

THANK YOU FOR WHAT YOU DO!!!!

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
... Morality is never relative. [/B]

What the? Morality is always relative. The definition of morality according to HyperDic (http://www.hyperdic.net/dic/m/morality.htm) is:
Concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong. Right or good conduct.

What defines good and evil or right and wrong? Culture, religion, age, race, gender, all determine an individuals concept of right and wrong, and therefore morals.

Is it immoral/wrong to eat pork - I say no, a Jew would say yes. Is drinking alcohol immoral - again I say no, a Muslim would say yes. How about corporal punishment of children (ie smacking) - some people consider this immoral - others support it. Eating meat? Vegans would definitely say this is immoral. Is slavery immoral? The average American in the 1800's would have said no.

I agree that for an action to be corageous it must be moral justifiable, however an act that is immoral is not neccessarily cowardly. It is dolphins and porpoises. All dolphins are porpoises, not all porpoises are dolphins.

[Oz Referee]

Two final thoughts on this discussion -

The war with Iraq - is it fair to kill thousands of innocent civilans for the actions of their government/military. I wholeheartedly support action against terrorists and the governments that support terrorism.

Finally, the question from many people in Australia (an other nations outside of the US) is "Who made the US the policeman for the world?" Why does the US constantly preach the wonders of democracy, yet at the same time refuse to listen to the decisions handed down by the UN?

This comment is not meant as an attack on any American, it is simply intended to highlight the hypocrisy of governments in general (truth be told, Australia is not much better - but being smaller, we get less focus).

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Oz Referee
The war with Iraq - is it fair to kill thousands of innocent civilans for the actions of their government/military. I wholeheartedly support action against terrorists and the governments that support terrorism.

Quite frankly, yes.

First off, the only reason there would be immense civilian casualty is because Hussein is known to use his own citizens as shields - any ethical responsibility is on him in that case.

Second, any loss of life is far outweighed by the death toll were Iraq to actually use a WMD. If we do not act and then get attacked by Iraq, everyone will be complaining that the U.S. should have done something.

Finally, the question from many people in Australia (an other nations outside of the US) is "Who made the US the policeman for the world?"

Everyone else in the world did by sitting back and refusing to act on things. To paraphrase Madeline Albright, we seem to be the only ones in the world with any cojones left.

Why does the US constantly preach the wonders of democracy, yet at the same time refuse to listen to the decisions handed down by the UN?

To put it simply, what the United Nations says means diddly-squat. They have no authority over the United States (a soverign nation) unless we concede authority to them. It's like the student government at my school - the students (UN) can suggest and critique all they want, but the administration (US) doesn't have to listen to an ounce of it.


That's it for me on this subject - I prefer basketball so much more

BTW, if I ever start discussing the relativity of morality, STOP ME!!!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Oz Referee

Is it immoral/wrong to eat pork - I say no, a Jew would say yes. Is drinking alcohol immoral - again I say no, a Muslim would say yes. How about corporal punishment of children (ie smacking) - some people consider this immoral - others support it. Eating meat? Vegans would definitely say this is immoral. Is slavery immoral? The average American in the 1800's would have said no.

[/B]

Most of the examples you give here are not morality. They
are dogma:

1.A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an
authoritative manner by a church.

Morality encompasses those behaviors which we can agree
upon as good or evil simply because they uphold or violate
basic rights we all have as humans. Murder (not killing),
rape, and yes, slavery. Can we say that eating pork
violates some basic human right and is evil? No. Can we
agree that premeditated murder, rape or slavery is evil?
Of course we can. Maybe by these simple examples you can see
what I mean.

BTW, it's not so clear that the average American in the
1800's would have agreed with you. Most Americans living
in "the North" would disagree. Most Americans living in
"the South" were not well off enough to own slaves. Anyway,
there was a huge war fought to settle this and other related
matters. Mnay people died simply because they did not
agree with your assertion.