One year later...

[Dan_ref]

...with the media attention it's hard to believe that there
is anyone who needs reminding what tomorrow is. Please,
if you can, take a moment to give thanks for what we have
and to remember what we have lost and what there is to come.

[Oz Referee]

I hope no one here takes this the wrong way, but.... I wonder if the ammount of attention that has been placed on 9-11 in the recent weeks has, to some extent, validated the attack in the eyes of those that committed it. In some ways it is like the kid that acts up to get attention, or the bully that picks on other children - if everyone ignores their actions, then they will stop doing it.

Having said that, obviously we must spend a moment to remember those that where lost and those that lost loved ones. I just hope that the media hype surrounding events does not encourage others to take similar action in the future.

peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Oz Referee
.... I wonder if the amount of attention that has been placed on 9-11 in the recent weeks has, to some extent, validated the attack in the eyes of those that committed it.

Those who committed this act didn't need any validation from us. They were already convinced they were doing right, no matter how sick and twisted that may be. In any case, I don't see how memorializing the victims would provide any "validation" for the terrorists. JMHO

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Oz Referee
I hope no one here takes this the wrong way, but.... I wonder if the ammount of attention that has been placed on 9-11 in the recent weeks has, to some extent, validated the attack in the eyes of those that committed it. In some ways it is like the kid that acts up to get attention, or the bully that picks on other children - if everyone ignores their actions, then they will stop doing it.

Having said that, obviously we must spend a moment to remember those that where lost and those that lost loved ones. I just hope that the media hype surrounding events does not encourage others to take similar action in the future.

peace

I don't think this particular act of terrorism was a political gesture meant to attract attention and possibly sympathizers (if such a thing is possible). This was an unmitigated act of hatred and aggression. I agree that terrorists should not be negotiated with, and I do agree that the media (as is typical) is squeezing every ounce of life out of this thing. However, terrorists do need to be dealt with in the most decisive way possible and eliminated. Ignoring them in the hopes that they will go away sadly is not an option.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I don't think this particular act of terrorism was a political gesture meant to attract attention and possibly sympathizers (if such a thing is possible). This was an unmitigated act of hatred and aggression. I agree that terrorists should not be negotiated with, and I do agree that the media (as is typical) is squeezing every ounce of life out of this thing. However, terrorists do need to be dealt with in the most decisive way possible and eliminated. Ignoring them in the hopes that they will go away sadly is not an option.

I totally agree that we should deal with terrorists promptly and decisively, what I meant is that their actions should be minimally reported in the media. This way it is much harder for them to gain sympathy/support from other people.

I didn't mean to suggest that we dont memorialize the victims, rather that we (ie the media) focus on the victims, rather than the event.

[BktBallRef]

It's impossible to not report on something tht affected the lives of so many. This isn't some teenager streaking across a baseball field trying to gain attention. This is an event where thousands of lives, of many nationalities, were lost. To just ignore it would be a greater injustice. The damamge is already done. We're not going to create greater damage by focusing on those who gave their lives.

[JRutledge]

In order to understand our enemy or the things that are against our country or way of life, I think we need to take the words "cowardly" out of it. What happen a year ago was not cowardly, it was just evil. Cowards do not blow themselves up for causes anytime. These people believed strongly in what they did and will do in the future. In order to fight that kind of evil, to call these individuals cowards might be understating the fight we have in front of us. If we think we are dealing with just fanatics or cowards, we might thing this "war" might be a bit easier then what we think. I am all for going after the people that perpretrated this action on the United States and I am all for fighting to the end, but let us understand that this fight is much more about religion or economic policy. This is more about a philosophy of worlds and how the colide. If we do not understand the enemy, we might not be able to ever defeat it.

Peace

[Mike Burns]

Personally, I don't believe that too much media attention can be placed on this event. 3,000 lives were lost on that day. Not since the Civil War have so many died in one day on American soil. Not since Pearl Harbor has such an evil, unprovoked attack taken place against America. The difference is that these Americans did not go to war or to their post that day. They went to work.

Perhaps we have seen the plane fly into the building, the Towers fall, the Pentagon on fire, and the crater left by the heroic acts of those on Flight 93 so often that we have become desensitized to it. Today has been a day of reflection and in many ways, at least for myself, a day to remember that for which we are fighting. It has been a day to remember why we must be vigilant to stand against those who would use senseless acts of terrorism such as these to strike against freedom.

Please forgive my rant, but it has been cathartic.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
It's impossible to not report on something tht affected the lives of so many. This isn't some teenager streaking across a baseball field trying to gain attention. This is an event where thousands of lives, of many nationalities, were lost. To just ignore it would be a greater injustice. The damamge is already done. We're not going to create greater damage by focusing on those who gave their lives.

Sorry, but you are obviously missing my point.

Firstly, I'm not saying don't report what has happened - I am saying carefully consider the way it is being reported. Make sure that the media doesn't sensationalise it.

Secondly, I am concerned that the media frenzy surround Sept 11 may encourage others to try something similar in the future - it may plant the seeds of the idea in them.

Finally Mike (and others) - I agree we should remember the innocent people that died, but what about remembering the thousands that have died in the past. What of the civilians that died in the bombings in WWII (both Allied & Axis), what about the thousands that have died in flooding in China this year, or the thousands dieing of AIDS every year in Africa?

Oh and Rut - you're right, they aren't cowards - they are fanatics and their belief structure is unfathomable (sp?) and abhorrent to many people (including myself). To be able to fight these people it must be remembered that for them, dieing does not mean losing.

Anyway, this is all I have to say about this. It was a horrific event - sincerely I hope that it is never repeated and my heart goes out to anyone that lost a friend or loved one.

[Dan_ref]

I can't let the comments concerning courage go by unchallenged.

By all measures through history the premeditated killing
of unarmed, uninvolved civilians has never been anything
short of murder. Period. This goes for uniformed
combatants and double for non-uniformed. It is only
recently that some have taken to calling these acts
couragous. This might be due to the wave of moral relativism that has swept us up recently - one mans
terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, it all depends on
what the meaning of "is" is, etc. It was not so long ago
that the attack on Pearl Harbor was described as "cowardly"
for very obvious reasons, as was our atrocities at Mai Lai.
How low have we fallen when people can say with a straight
face that using a commercial airliner as a guided missile to
attack office buildings is an act of courage.

I have nothing left to say on this, maybe it's time this thread was closed.

[Edited by Dan_ref on Sep 12th, 2002 at 08:10 AM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
How low have we fallen when people can say with a straight face that using a commercial airliner as a guided missile to attack office buildings is an act of courage.

This is, of course, what got Bill Mahr fired by ABC. Oh, they didn't do it right away. Heaven forbid it should look like a network is hindering free speech. But anyone with any sense knew he was simply wrong.

The fact that the hijackers did not show fear does not make them courageous, nor any less cowardly. It just makes them cold-blooded, vicious murderers.

Chuck

[JRutledge]

I think you guys missed the point.

If we think we are dealing with cowards, then we might be completely underestimate the enemy. No one said anything about them having courage, but they surely are not cowards. Cowards back down from confrontation, not give their lives for things they believe in.

Bill like me do not call these individuals or any individual that gives their lives for anything cause a coward. They died too. So did the suicide bombers in Israel or the ones that hit many targets all over the world. Just because we do not agree with the actions does not mean it is cowardly. I do not consider what the Japanesse government as cowardly. No more cowardly than what we did in the Gulf war or bombings of Iraq that we did. Japan just like us bombed a country with their interests in mind. In both cases both seemed to fail becuase neither attempt dismantled the governments they were trying to destroy. Actually Pearl Harbor strenghtend our resolve and turned up the heat, and our actions against Iraq under Bush Sr and Clinton have strengthend the resolve of Iraq and Suddam Hussian is still there.


If they are cowards then to me they would lay down when we attack or confront them. All our actions have done is raise their resolve. If we think they will lay down because we threaten them or confront them, we might be in over our heads. We must understand that they are playing for keeps. Are we willing to do all of this when our children come back home in body bags and we are all not sure why we are doing what we have set out? It seems like they will take several casualties and not blink. I am sorry, I cannot call that cowardly by any definition.

Either way we are in for an enourmous fight. Calling them cowards we might be doing our side the biggest deserves.

Just one opinion.

Peace

[PAULK1]

Lets not limit the definition of cowardly to just yours.
It is also considered cowardly to shoot someone in the back or to sucker punch someone when they are not looking(maybe good metaphors for what happened at Pearl or 911). As for your comparison of Pearl and the Gulf War what a load of crap! Japan bombed us with no prior declaration of war or warning of war. In both the Gulf and Afaghanastan the Governments were given far warning of our intentions and given an opportunity to go another way. Todays Americans
have truly forgotten or are unwilling to pay the price of the freedom, and that is blood. You cannot reason or negotiate with your enemies you must kill them(that is war)
The casulties of the last 2 wars would not even rate a headline in the wars of the past. If we were fighting WWII
today the concern over body bags would lead to half of us learning to say heil Hitler and the other half heading for the ovens.

[JRutledge]

If I learned anything from my degree in Political Science, is that is that in political discussions are based on theory and ideals sometimes more than fact. This conversation is no different. It is just how you look at the situation.

Peace

[PAULK1]

let me paraphrase others:

Our fighters are willing to die for our country and beliefs
Taliban spokesman


I never saw anybody win a war by dying for their country,
you win a war by making the other ******* die for his.
George Patton