One year later...

[JRutledge]

You have to understand that Americans are very arrogant. We think we do no wrong and the world is so evil. We spend more time talking about the injustices all over the world and cannot see that the world questions our decisions or policies. We see Israel as competely clean, but look at the Arabs as completely evil. If I am not mistaken, Israel has killed many innocent people over the region, but we do not call that terroism. We have an American flag wavied on the same truck with a Confedrate flag (representing a Confederacy that we defeated in war mind you), but question the loyalty of an Arab that wears clothes or looks like a "terrorist" all based on their religion.

Understand that not all people in America look at the Stars and Stripes the same way. I can tell show you an association that when 9-11 happen, almost entirely did not support Officials wearing the American Flag on our arm like the other associations.

Trust me, not all in America agrees with what happen, why it happen and what to do about it. Better yet, not everyone is in support of this President. If this country has greatness, that is the part that makes it great.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Oz Referee
Finally, the question from many people in Australia (an other nations outside of the US) is "Who made the US the policeman for the world?" Why does the US constantly preach the wonders of democracy, yet at the same time refuse to listen to the decisions handed down by the UN?

Being a policeman has nothing to do with it. Iraq poses a threat to the US and our allies. We will defend what ourselves and our allies against such a nemesis. Are you telling us that Australia doesn't wish to be an ally of the US?

For thousands of years, civilians have a been a casuality of war. You make it sound like we go out of our way to kill anyone in our way. What a uninformed and uneducated state of mind. Your posts betray you. You're obviously very anti-American. Yet, I wonder.

I wonder who Australia would come running to for help if they were attacked by Iraq, or any other terrorist nation? And I wonder if your feelings would change if they ran to US?

Good night.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BktBallRef


For thousands of years, civilians have a been a casuality of war. You make it sound like we go out of our way to kill anyone in our way. What a uninformed and uneducated state of mind. Your posts betray you. You're obviously very anti-American. Yet, I wonder.

This is the most intellegent thing you have ever said. Anyone that questions the "Mighty United States of America" is anti-American and uneducated. Great post Tony.

Peace

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Being a policeman has nothing to do with it. Iraq poses a threat to the US and our allies. We will defend what ourselves and our allies against such a nemesis. Are you telling us that Australia doesn't wish to be an ally of the US?

For thousands of years, civilians have a been a casuality of war. You make it sound like we go out of our way to kill anyone in our way. What a uninformed and uneducated state of mind. Your posts betray you. You're obviously very anti-American. Yet, I wonder.

I wonder who Australia would come running to for help if they were attacked by Iraq, or any other terrorist nation? And I wonder if your feelings would change if they ran to US?

Good night.

Explain to me exactly how Iraq is a direct threat to the USA. Will America be invaded by the Iraqi army? Will Iraq launch a military strike on Iraq? Some cynics would argue that America is more concerned with a threat to the supply of petroleum.

Yes I would like Australia to remain an ally of America.

Does America go out of its way to kill civilians during wars? Do the words Hiroshima and Nagasaki mean anything to you? Look at Vietnam - invading a country to fight on "behalf" of a people that didn't want you.

Uneducated and uniformed? Why? Because my views differ to yours? I'm sorry I didn't realise that your opinion was the only correct one.

Am I anti-American? No. Do I think that America gets carried away by their own importance? Yes. Do I object to politicans (especially those of other nations) telling me how to act, think and feel? Yes.

How would I feel if Iraq attacked Australia? Well besides suprised, I would expect Australia's allies to come to our defence. However, thus far, I have not seen any indication that Iraq has committed an act of war against another nation - correct me if I am wrong (I'm sure you will )

The fact remains - the government of America is always the first to jump up and complain about other countries - whether it be their human rights record, trade agreements or lack of democracy. But as soon as another country (or the UN) criticises the USA all hell breaks loose. Again, the word hypocritical springs to mind.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by JRutledge
You have to understand that Americans are very arrogant. We think we do no wrong and the world is so evil. We spend more time talking about the injustices all over the world and cannot see that the world questions our decisions or policies. We see Israel as competely clean, but look at the Arabs as completely evil. If I am not mistaken, Israel has killed many innocent people over the region, but we do not call that terroism. We have an American flag wavied on the same truck with a Confedrate flag (representing a Confederacy that we defeated in war mind you), but question the loyalty of an Arab that wears clothes or looks like a "terrorist" all based on their religion.

Understand that not all people in America look at the Stars and Stripes the same way. I can tell show you an association that when 9-11 happen, almost entirely did not support Officials wearing the American Flag on our arm like the other associations.

Trust me, not all in America agrees with what happen, why it happen and what to do about it. Better yet, not everyone is in support of this President. If this country has greatness, that is the part that makes it great.

Peace

Rut,

It's not often on this board that I have said this - but I agree with you completely.

The other thing I have found is that the majority of Americans have difficulty differentiating between critisicm of the American Government and of America.

I love America - any nation that can create such great sports (gridiron, basketball), music (jazz, hip-hop), art, educational facilities, that can give birth to such fantastic personalities - Edison, Washinton, Martin Luther King Jnr, to name a few, is pretty good in my opinion. I simply strongly object to some of the political decisions that have been made in the past by American politicians.

And since the decisions made by American politicans affect me more than the decisions made by, say French politicians, then these are the ones that I get upset by.

[Sleeper]

OZ, I felt compelled to answer some of your questions:

Explain to me exactly how Iraq is a direct threat to the USA. Will America be invaded by the Iraqi army? Will Iraq launch a military strike on Iraq? Some cynics would argue that America is more concerned with a threat to the supply of petroleum.

**No, Iraq doesn't have the military capability to invade the US (few countries do). What Iraq does have the capability to do is supply terrorist organization with capital, from the sale of oil, and weapons, both conventional and catastrophic. Iraq has also shown the willingness to use chemical weapons, such as nerve gas, on it's own citizens. Finally, oil IS a big part of it. Iraq invaded Kuwait for oil and would have continued to other countries if not for the actions of a US-led coalition. Iraq is in continued violation of multiple UNITED NATIONS resolutions and has ignored the international community and their mandates. The fact is, without the US, the UN has no teeth. That is why time and again US troops are put in harms way to enforce UN directives.

Yes I would like Australia to remain an ally of America.

Does America go out of its way to kill civilians during wars? Do the words Hiroshima and Nagasaki mean anything to you? Look at Vietnam - invading a country to fight on "behalf" of a people that didn't want you.

**If you want to bring up either WWII or Vietnam, you should probably present a little more balanced view. The US, while supporting the Allied cause in Europe, stayed out of WWII. It was an unprovoked Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor that brought us into the war. The two atomic weapons that were dropped kept the US from having to invade the Japanese mainland, which saved tens of thousands of US lives. War is neither pretty or fair, with the goal being to save as many of your lives as possible while driving your enemy into submission. Historically, the US has yet to be an agressor in any war. Once provoked, we play to win. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is how war exists.

Vietnam was not an invasion, either. We originally went in to assist, invited, by the French and the South Vietnamese government to combat communist invasions funded largely by the Soviet Union and China (much like in Korea) and got sucked in to a police action (war) that we had no business being in. There are very few people in the US that will defend either the decision to go into Vietnam or how the war was run.

Uneducated and uniformed? Why? Because my views differ to yours? I'm sorry I didn't realise that your opinion was the only correct one.

Am I anti-American? No. Do I think that America gets carried away by their own importance? Yes. Do I object to politicans (especially those of other nations) telling me how to act, think and feel? Yes.

**Yes, you are uneducated and uninformed and I have no idea why. I don't care if you are anti-American or if you support the US, but at least get your facts straight about our role in recent conflicts. If you are going to argue a point, do so rationally and not with the same, tired emotional arguements that continue to be used.

How would I feel if Iraq attacked Australia? Well besides suprised, I would expect Australia's allies to come to our defence. However, thus far, I have not seen any indication that Iraq has committed an act of war against another nation - correct me if I am wrong (I'm sure you will )

**The US would come to your aid just as quickly as we do for everyone else. Iraq has committed acts of war, against its own people in the northern part of the country, against Kuwait, Israel and Iran in recent memory. Iraq has actively funded terrorist groups that bombed the World Trade Centers (twice), several of our embassies, the hotel housing US troops in Saudi Arabia, and thousands of innocents in Israel. In addition, they continue their pursuit of atomic weapons, for which they are only a couple of years away, according to a scientist who defected (can't remember his name off hand)

The fact remains - the government of America is always the first to jump up and complain about other countries - whether it be their human rights record, trade agreements or lack of democracy. But as soon as another country (or the UN) criticises the USA all hell breaks loose. Again, the word hypocritical springs to mind.

**The FACTS are that the US has supported the UN at every step of the way, providing the millitary power that the UN needs to be legitimate. No country takes criticism particularly well, but the US bears the brunt of it internationally, mainly from Europe, who we have assisted in two major wars, rebuilding and supplying capital and support. Yes, the US doesn't take criticism well, but when all hell breaks loose, we are the first place leaders of the world come running to for help.

I don't care if you like the US, I don't care if you are anti-US. In fact, I defend your right to disagree, because that is a part of the country in which I live. However, get your information straight before you level arguements that are factually incorrect.

[Dan_ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oz Referee

...
Does America go out of its way to kill civilians during wars? Do the words Hiroshima and Nagasaki mean anything to you? Look at Vietnam - invading a country to fight on "behalf" of a people that didn't want you.
...

Yeah, Hiroshma & Nagasaki mean a lot to me. In 1944/45 my
father chased the Germans across Europe, dragged along by
Patton. When his war ended he, and a lot of other men,
(and I suspect men in your family) were getting ready to go
invade Japan. It took 2 bombs to convince the emperor that
he should put down his weapons. So it's easy to believe
the estimates of millions of casualties, mostly Japanese
civilians, if the allies would have had to invade Japan.

You are obviously a bright young guy. You should invest
some time looking closely at world events in the 1930's.
Much of what went on in Europe at that time applies to
today's world picture. In 1934 Germany left the League of
Nations and began re-arming in violation of treaties from
WW1, by mid 1940 Germany had invaded and defeated Poland,
Norway, Belguim, Denmark, the Netherlands and France. You
might also want to spend some time looking into the cold
war and in particular the Vietnam war. It's completely
untrue to say the people of S Vietnam did not want support
from the non-communist block of nations, which included
proud Australian forces.

http://www.euronet.nl/users/wilfried/ww2/ww2.htm
http://users.mildura.net.au/users/ma.../austinvol.htm

added this link:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...417076,00.html

[Edited by Dan_ref on Sep 16th, 2002 at 10:10 AM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Sleeper


**Yes, you are uneducated and uninformed and I have no idea why. I don't care if you are anti-American or if you support the US, but at least get your facts straight about our role in recent conflicts. If you are going to argue a point, do so rationally and not with the same, tired emotional arguements that continue to be used.

This attitude always erks me if for no other reason. We always call someone uneducated or uniformed when we do not agree with that person. Actually his views are not uneducated or uniformed at all. They are just different from your's and that is all.

If you watched "Meet the Press" this past Sunday, there was a quest that clearly stated that Iraq and the Taliban are not fighting for the same things and that the Taliban would be more of an enemy to Iraq than an allie. For one Suddam Hussian is an secular leader, not an Islamic leader. The Taliban is a political/religious organization. According to one of the guests (sorry I did not catch his name) he claimed that Iraq would be very hard pressed to give the Taliban weapons to benefit them, especially when their interests are not the same. Now this came from an individual that worked in government and in the White House and knows or understand what is going on much more than most. Would you call him uneducated or uniformed? Not everyone agrees the threat Iraq poses or it's role in terroism. Terroism is a world wide problem, not just something Iraq is responsible for. If that is the case, let us attack Saudi Arabia. Most of the highjackers came from there. But that would not fall in line with our inconsitent foreign policy.

Views that are not yours does not make someone uniformed nor uneducated, it makes them simply different. Espeically considering that we are all different races, religions, nationalities, ethnicity or political value system.

Peace

[rockyroad]

[/B][/QUOTE]

This attitude always erks me if for no other reason. We always call someone uneducated or uniformed when we do not agree with that person. Actually his views are not uneducated or uniformed at all. They are just different from your's and that is all.

If we are going to talk about attitudes which irk us, then yours would have to rate right up there...Oz used some situations and examples to try to prove his point, but -as was pointed out - he either used them badly or used them without understanding what he was talking about. Either way, he was corrected...that's not arrogant, and it certainly has nothing to do with differing opinions...he was wrong and he was corrected...he, and everyone else, is certainly entitled to their opinion about current world events - but be ready to be disagreed with if they start spouting things off the top of their heads...

[Sleeper]

I am sorry, but I disagree. To present half a story or to ignore facts is either someone deliberately purveying something as false or that person is uneducated and/or uniformed. I have no reason to believe OZ was pushing an agenda, so I assume he was uninformed. To be ignorant is not a crime, to be stupid should be.

I never mentioned religion in my post, because, while a contributing factor, it is not a definitive reason. There are many Muslims in the US and many Muslim countries we count as allies, pricipally Turkey and Saudi Arabia. I also didn't mention the Taliban as either an ally of Iraq or a terrorist organization. They were a government that used tribal and strict Islamic law to rule their country. They did, however, harbor the organization responsible for 9/11. Therefore, they were destroyed after having ample opportunity to turn over the perpetrators. The hijackers were from Saudi, but were not acting or a part of the governing body there. Foreign policy by nature is both consistent and inconsistent at the same time, consistent because our national interest are always the driving force and inconsistent because we deal with the same situations different ways because of that.

I responded to some specific assertions leveled by the poster (line by line). Please do not attribute thoughts that were not there. The poster was incorrect on a number of items, of which all can be verified. He tried to take very complex situations out of context and provide broad general conclusions. This is intellectually and academically dishonest. In addition, please don't attribute statements or thoughts to me that I didn't use. I appreciate diverse thoughts and don't mind someone who disagrees. What I don't care for is emotion and sarcasm that people try to pass for coherent thought. Believe what you want, but back it up with a rational arguement.

Finally, I am entitled to my opinion and its defense. I love my country, warts and all, and take great displeasure to its mischaracterization by persons who fail to educate themselves as to its history. That irritation is magnified when those persons originate from within our borders, especially those who whine and complain without making suggestions for improvement. Our country, as of this moment, is the global policeman. Not because we wanted the role, but because we carry the biggest stick on the block and are the only ones who can make a difference.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rockyroad


Either way, he was corrected...that's not arrogant, and it certainly has nothing to do with differing opinions...he was wrong and he was corrected...

Great attitude. I guess when they do not agree with your point, they need to be corrected. Like you are a teacher and OZ is a student. I did not realize the view of the world about America was a True or False answer. I think some of us have only been reading rulebooks and not read newspapers or read magazine articles or watching CNN or Fox News Channel if we think your view is the only one around.

I guess I will irk you some more.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Like I said - but you failed to read carefully - it has nothing to do with points of view or opinion...Oz - and you - are fully entitled to your opinion. But as Sleeper has so carefully pointed out, don't try to substantiate those points of view by inaccurately quoting facts or examples...that is NOT a matter of opinion...and actually I am a teacher - and while Oz may not be one of my students, he did need to be corrected and was...again, it is not a matter of my opinion being right or his wrong - as I said before - and you failed to read - he is entitled to his opinion...just don't use misrepresentations to support it...

[JRutledge]

Just because a viewpoint does not go along with what you think is right or wrong, does not make it right or wrong. Oz or anyone is not at all wrong, or nor do they need to be corrected. The world does not look at September 11, 2001 and what lead up to it the same. How we even handle it is not viewed the same either. I think we need to all keep these things in mind when we disagree with someone's values about this issue.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rockyroad
Like I said - but you failed to read carefully - it has nothing to do with points of view or opinion...Oz - and you - are fully entitled to your opinion. But as Sleeper has so carefully pointed out, don't try to substantiate those points of view by inaccurately quoting facts or examples...that is NOT a matter of opinion...and actually I am a teacher - and while Oz may not be one of my students, he did need to be corrected and was...again, it is not a matter of my opinion being right or his wrong - as I said before - and you failed to read - he is entitled to his opinion...just don't use misrepresentations to support it...

True Rocky, everyone agrees what happen in history and how this history was developed. But then again, most here might think Thomas Jefferson and George Washinton were great men. I guess that means that all of us agree with the greatness of George W. Bush and Bill Clinton. I am very sure we will have not disagreement on these men's history.

Peace

[Sleeper]

I don't know that we can all agree that Jefferson and Washington were great men. I think that all would agree that they were men that, while flawed, did great things. They shaped a constitution that is still unique in the world that protects many freedoms we enjoy. I don't think history will be kind to President Clinton, as the information from his administration has yet to show any meaningful accomplishments. The jury should still be out on Bush, as he still has two years in his first term and much more history yet to write. He will probably go down as a middle of the road president, neither great nor bad, which is where most presidents fit.

I think you confuse the rebuttal of facts to the offering of opinion. I am of the opinion that we messed up the Vietnam war. The fact is that we were invited. I am of the opinion that the loss of life at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were monumentally sad. The fact is that the bombs dropped saved tens of thousands of US lives and brought WWII to the end. I am of the opinion that your posts tend to be caustic, arguementative, sarcastic and contrarian. The fact is you have every right to have those opinions and I defend that right vehemently.

Rut, you have a lot to share, both sports and otherwise. But much of it is lost in the way you present your information and defend your ideas and points. You have an ivory tower mentality that really makes it difficult to sift out the information. I do feel sorry for you.

By the way, my reading list is more than just the rulebook, even at this time of year. It includes the Economist, Time of London, WSJ (at times), CNN, local newspapers, Yahoo news, Drudge Report, NewsMax, WorldNet Daily and other alterative sources to give me as balanced a view of the world as possible. I have an MBA in Global Management and did my thesis on the French Influence on the EU. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I am hardly the mental midget you try to portray. There are two things that I know. The first is to base what I believe on fact versus emotion and the second is that I understand that I can always learn more. I am open to other views and opinions, but there has to be more to them than just feel good and fluff. I don't believe what I do because it is convenient, I believe because I have the information that backs it up.