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-   -   IMO, they were wrong and shouldn't come back. (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/57551-imo-they-were-wrong-shouldnt-come-back.html)

Odd Duck Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:25am

IMO, they were wrong and shouldn't come back.
 
Let me preface this by stating that we in Texas spent the entire season hearing from the UIL how important it was that we knew the rules and how to properly enforce them at all times. Lack of proper rules knowledge simply would not be tolerated.

Fast forward to last Saturday. Team A and the officiating crew are on the floor before the start of the 1A state championship game. Team B comes running out with just under 10 minutes on the clock before the start of the game. The second player in their lay-up drill (call him B1) decides that dunk is called for and appropriate...in fact, it was a nice dunk and got a nice reaction from the crowd. The umpire clearly saw the dunk. How, you may ask, do I believe that to be true from my seat in the stands? Because he immediately walked over to the player, put his hand on his back and talked to him. I assumed he was informing the player he had been assessed a techinical foul and getting his number for recording purposes. However, game time arrived and it started with the normal toss.

IMO, the officials in this crew (with the possible exception of the other umpire) should not be rewarded with future state tournament assignments. What are your thoughts.

For the record, I did not attend any of the schools playing at the state tournament last weekend. I do not know anyone who has attended any of those schools and in fact, have never even been to any of those campuses. We just go down to Austin each year for three days of non-stop basketball.

Mark Padgett Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:32am

Just not giving them any more good assignments isn't enough. This is what I recommend the governing body do to them:

http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/obp-wiki/..._quartered.jpg

grunewar Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:38am

Yikes Mark!
 
That's a little harsh even for you! I mean, to do it in a public square?

Sheesh, how are we ever going to develop new officials that way? ;)

CLH Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:59am

I think barring them from further participation in a state tournament is a bit harsh. Also, you must realize that we are told quite sternly that technical fouls are all but off limits on this stage. (trust me I heard it myself) But, I do agree with you that this was a technical foul and deserved to be penalized as such.

The public execution does sound fun though!!

M&M Guy Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:00pm

A few questions:

Was anyone there from the state office to observe? Do you know for sure the officials were told to enforce the rule on pre-game dunking, for this particular game? Do you know for sure they were told at halftime or after the game that they did not enforce a rule that the state wants enforced? How do you know these officials will actually be be back, or that they did not receive a poor rating for that game? In our state, officials will only work the state finals for a maximum of 3 years, so is there a chance these officials will not be back anyway? In TX, do the coaches have a say in who works the tournament? If so, perhaps these officials are doing what they need to do to work the tournament, and that includes giving the players a warning before starting the game with a T.

Without more information, it's hard to respond directly to your statement of whether they should be back. Do I think all rules should be enforced as written? Yep. However, I also know individual areas and states provide their own interpretations as to what's "right" for that area. In IL, for example, there were plenty of teams that participated in the state tournament with illegal uniforms, without penalty, because the state provided waivers to those teams, on the basis they felt it was not fair to penalize the players for an administrative issue.

CLH Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:05pm

Was anyone there from the state office to observe?
-Yep, everyone of em
Do you know for sure the officials were told to enforce the rule on pre-game dunking, for this particular game?
-It's a rule...enforce it.
Do you know for sure they were told at halftime or after the game that they did not enforce a rule that the state wants enforced?
-Nope
How do you know these officials will actually be be back, or that they did not receive a poor rating for that game?
-It's a secret.
In our state, officials will only work the state finals for a maximum of 3 years, so is there a chance these officials will not be back anyway?
-Nope, with the new selection process they can work ever year until they die.
In TX, do the coaches have a say in who works the tournament?
-Nope
If so, perhaps these officials are doing what they need to do to work the tournament, and that includes giving the players a warning before starting the game with a T.
-You could be right, but the rulebook provides nothing for a warning for this infraction.

Not being a smarta$$, just answering so please don't misunderstand my tone. cool? ;)

Loudwhistle Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 668319)
That's a little harsh even for you! I mean, to do it in a public square?

Sheesh, how are we ever going to develop new officials that way? ;)

Agreed,
How about we just chop off a body part that they can live miserably without and definitely stop any compromising of the gene pool.

The picture is actually of what's left of "reffs" who had bad mouthed other officials from the stands.:D

Adam Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLH (Post 668321)
Also, you must realize that we are told quite sternly that technical fouls are all but off limits on this stage. (trust me I heard it myself)

That's absurd; to make this statement and then be upset when officials don't call a pre-game dunk?

BTW and IMO, this is the problem you get by having the custom of the officials blow the whistle when they come onto the court to tell the kids that dunking time is over. They're in the habit of dunking in pre-game warm ups.

CLH Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 668327)
That's absurd; to make this statement and then be upset when officials don't call a pre-game dunk?

BTW and IMO, this is the problem you get by having the custom of the officials blow the whistle when they come onto the court to tell the kids that dunking time is over. They're in the habit of dunking in pre-game warm ups.


I agree...You'll never hear a whistle from when I walk on the court...only whistles AT me...lol

Odd Duck Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy (Post 668322)
A few questions:

Was anyone there from the state office to observe? Do you know for sure the officials were told to enforce the rule on pre-game dunking, for this particular game? Do you know for sure they were told at halftime or after the game that they did not enforce a rule that the state wants enforced? How do you know these officials will actually be be back, or that they did not receive a poor rating for that game? In our state, officials will only work the state finals for a maximum of 3 years, so is there a chance these officials will not be back anyway? In TX, do the coaches have a say in who works the tournament? If so, perhaps these officials are doing what they need to do to work the tournament, and that includes giving the players a warning before starting the game with a T.

Without more information, it's hard to respond directly to your statement of whether they should be back. Do I think all rules should be enforced as written? Yep. However, I also know individual areas and states provide their own interpretations as to what's "right" for that area. In IL, for example, there were plenty of teams that participated in the state tournament with illegal uniforms, without penalty, because the state provided waivers to those teams, on the basis they felt it was not fair to penalize the players for an administrative issue.

Even though CLH answered your questions I do have a few comments.

While I have no doubt that the officials are told to avoid technicals, the calling of technicals at the state tournament...including the finals...does occur. I have seen them called on both players and a coach.

Given that the UIL Director of Officials has "lectured" officials and chapters during the year for "creatively interpreting and enforcing the rules" I would be surprised the crews were told to blatantly ignore a rule. I do know for a fact that they did not give a handout to the spectators stating which rules they would not be enforcing during those three days of competition :D

As far as people from the state office being at the games...good lord yes they were there. You constantly saw the Tournament Director and UIL Executive Director (by the way, that man needs to learn how to be short winded...those half time presentation felt like they went on forever). I do not know the Director of Officials well enough to know him on sight from the stands. However, since the officials who worked the semi-finals were evaluated for selection to work the finals he was probably there for all the games as well.

Lastly, no...I do not know if they were told about this situation at half time or after the game. Obviously the 15,000 people in attendance are not allowed inside their room and are not privy to their conversations. :)

M&M Guy Mon Mar 15, 2010 01:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLH (Post 668323)
Not being a smarta$$, just answering so please don't misunderstand my tone. cool? ;)

Well, I'm not being a smarta$$ either (this time... ;) ), but the point of my questions was there seems to be some judgement being passed without knowing all the facts involved, that's all. If the tournament director and others were there, then one of two things most likely happened - the officials were downgraded for not enforcing the rules, or they were told to handle it just as they did. If they were told to enforce it that way, then it doesn't make sense to say they don't deserve to work the tournament any more. They could've also been told by their local assignor or association to enforce it that way, and were not told to handle it any differently for that particular game. So, if they are following orders, who are we to say they're not good enough to work any more tournament games?

Yes, there are officials that don't know all the rules, or purposely ignore rules they don't agree with. But there's an excellent chance the officials working that particular game were pretty good officials, so without any additional information I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

DLH17 Mon Mar 15, 2010 02:00pm

[intermission]

CLH - is that image in your sig line link Sammy Hagar's autograph?

CLH Mon Mar 15, 2010 02:06pm

nah, its mine, i forgot it was on there, I was just playing with that stuff one day, forgot to take it down

DLH17 Mon Mar 15, 2010 02:25pm

you're the red rocker??!!!!??? :D

Mark Padgett Mon Mar 15, 2010 02:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLH17 (Post 668346)
you're the red rocker??!!!!??? :D

You mean this guy? :confused:

http://www.framaree.com/2006%20webs/...d_Rocker_w.jpg

Actually - the "red" rocker was a guy named Lennon (rhymes with Lenin). That's a 60s reference.


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