IMO, they were wrong and shouldn't come back.
 

Let me preface this by stating that we in Texas spent the entire season hearing from the UIL how important it was that we knew the rules and how to properly enforce them at all times. Lack of proper rules knowledge simply would not be tolerated.

Fast forward to last Saturday. Team A and the officiating crew are on the floor before the start of the 1A state championship game. Team B comes running out with just under 10 minutes on the clock before the start of the game. The second player in their lay-up drill (call him B1) decides that dunk is called for and appropriate...in fact, it was a nice dunk and got a nice reaction from the crowd. The umpire clearly saw the dunk. How, you may ask, do I believe that to be true from my seat in the stands? Because he immediately walked over to the player, put his hand on his back and talked to him. I assumed he was informing the player he had been assessed a techinical foul and getting his number for recording purposes. However, game time arrived and it started with the normal toss.

IMO, the officials in this crew (with the possible exception of the other umpire) should not be rewarded with future state tournament assignments. What are your thoughts.

For the record, I did not attend any of the schools playing at the state tournament last weekend. I do not know anyone who has attended any of those schools and in fact, have never even been to any of those campuses. We just go down to Austin each year for three days of non-stop basketball.

Just not giving them any more good assignments isn't enough. This is what I recommend the governing body do to them:

http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/obp-wiki/..._quartered.jpg

Yikes Mark!
 

That's a little harsh even for you! I mean, to do it in a public square?

Sheesh, how are we ever going to develop new officials that way? ;)

I think barring them from further participation in a state tournament is a bit harsh. Also, you must realize that we are told quite sternly that technical fouls are all but off limits on this stage. (trust me I heard it myself) But, I do agree with you that this was a technical foul and deserved to be penalized as such.

The public execution does sound fun though!!

A few questions:

Was anyone there from the state office to observe? Do you know for sure the officials were told to enforce the rule on pre-game dunking, for this particular game? Do you know for sure they were told at halftime or after the game that they did not enforce a rule that the state wants enforced? How do you know these officials will actually be be back, or that they did not receive a poor rating for that game? In our state, officials will only work the state finals for a maximum of 3 years, so is there a chance these officials will not be back anyway? In TX, do the coaches have a say in who works the tournament? If so, perhaps these officials are doing what they need to do to work the tournament, and that includes giving the players a warning before starting the game with a T.

Without more information, it's hard to respond directly to your statement of whether they should be back. Do I think all rules should be enforced as written? Yep. However, I also know individual areas and states provide their own interpretations as to what's "right" for that area. In IL, for example, there were plenty of teams that participated in the state tournament with illegal uniforms, without penalty, because the state provided waivers to those teams, on the basis they felt it was not fair to penalize the players for an administrative issue.

Was anyone there from the state office to observe?
-Yep, everyone of em
Do you know for sure the officials were told to enforce the rule on pre-game dunking, for this particular game?
-It's a rule...enforce it.
Do you know for sure they were told at halftime or after the game that they did not enforce a rule that the state wants enforced?
-Nope
How do you know these officials will actually be be back, or that they did not receive a poor rating for that game?
-It's a secret.
In our state, officials will only work the state finals for a maximum of 3 years, so is there a chance these officials will not be back anyway?
-Nope, with the new selection process they can work ever year until they die.
In TX, do the coaches have a say in who works the tournament?
-Nope
If so, perhaps these officials are doing what they need to do to work the tournament, and that includes giving the players a warning before starting the game with a T.
-You could be right, but the rulebook provides nothing for a warning for this infraction.

Not being a smarta$$, just answering so please don't misunderstand my tone. cool? ;)

Agreed,
How about we just chop off a body part that they can live miserably without and definitely stop any compromising of the gene pool.

The picture is actually of what's left of "reffs" who had bad mouthed other officials from the stands.:D

That's absurd; to make this statement and then be upset when officials don't call a pre-game dunk?

BTW and IMO, this is the problem you get by having the custom of the officials blow the whistle when they come onto the court to tell the kids that dunking time is over. They're in the habit of dunking in pre-game warm ups.

I agree...You'll never hear a whistle from when I walk on the court...only whistles AT me...lol

Even though CLH answered your questions I do have a few comments.

While I have no doubt that the officials are told to avoid technicals, the calling of technicals at the state tournament...including the finals...does occur. I have seen them called on both players and a coach.

Given that the UIL Director of Officials has "lectured" officials and chapters during the year for "creatively interpreting and enforcing the rules" I would be surprised the crews were told to blatantly ignore a rule. I do know for a fact that they did not give a handout to the spectators stating which rules they would not be enforcing during those three days of competition :D

As far as people from the state office being at the games...good lord yes they were there. You constantly saw the Tournament Director and UIL Executive Director (by the way, that man needs to learn how to be short winded...those half time presentation felt like they went on forever). I do not know the Director of Officials well enough to know him on sight from the stands. However, since the officials who worked the semi-finals were evaluated for selection to work the finals he was probably there for all the games as well.

Lastly, no...I do not know if they were told about this situation at half time or after the game. Obviously the 15,000 people in attendance are not allowed inside their room and are not privy to their conversations. :)

Well, I'm not being a smarta$$ either (this time... ;) ), but the point of my questions was there seems to be some judgement being passed without knowing all the facts involved, that's all. If the tournament director and others were there, then one of two things most likely happened - the officials were downgraded for not enforcing the rules, or they were told to handle it just as they did. If they were told to enforce it that way, then it doesn't make sense to say they don't deserve to work the tournament any more. They could've also been told by their local assignor or association to enforce it that way, and were not told to handle it any differently for that particular game. So, if they are following orders, who are we to say they're not good enough to work any more tournament games?

Yes, there are officials that don't know all the rules, or purposely ignore rules they don't agree with. But there's an excellent chance the officials working that particular game were pretty good officials, so without any additional information I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[intermission]

CLH - is that image in your sig line link Sammy Hagar's autograph?

nah, its mine, i forgot it was on there, I was just playing with that stuff one day, forgot to take it down

you're the red rocker??!!!!??? :D

You mean this guy? :confused:

http://www.framaree.com/2006%20webs/...d_Rocker_w.jpg

Actually - the "red" rocker was a guy named Lennon (rhymes with Lenin). That's a 60s reference.

No brainer imo. If it's an obvious dunk, a technical foul should have been called. But after saying that, I do agree with M&M also. There might be a reason that the dunk wasn't called. There may have been instructions given to the crew beforehand. So, without talking to the official involved, the "might" and "may" means there is possibly a slight doubt involved.

Put me down with M&M as being slightly wishy-washy also.

Hey, I'm not wishy-washy. At least I don't think I am. Well, maybe. Or not?

Maybe you're just washy. :)

You wish.

Hey - some of my best friends are you wish. :D

We breed 'em around here!

The Men Are All Crazy About The Lady In Red ...
 

Maybe the official's realized that whacking someone for dunking in the warm up is a great way to piss off an entire team.

In our region, they advise us to warm first. Then T them.

When did having to worry about whether a techical foul would piss anybody off become a factor in whether that call should be made or not?:confused:

Weird local philosophy imo.

OK, so let me see if I have this right in your scenario:

- A1 knowingly dunks the ball.
- The Team/Coach know this is against the rules and understands the penalty.
- The referees rightfully enforce the rules and assess the penalty.

Team A gets pissed off and does what?

Referees call the game as always......I see no problems.

I had to call this tech once this year. You know who the coach got pissed at? The player. He was the starting center and the coach benched him immediately after the technical free throws and the player didn't return until the 2nd quarter.

And the team who did not dunk gets penalized instead.

Agree, once players figure this out they will dunk until warned.

And to be consistent, if you warn one player, you have to warn every player...on both teams. You could have a whole bunch of warm-up dunks, couldn't you?

Silly monkeys....:rolleyes:

If you read this month's Referee you will understand some of the frustrations among officials in Texas. We were told by a UIL official that high school mechanics would be enforced, yet at the state tournament I saw thumbs down for 30 second time out reporting: handing the ball to the thrower on side line throw-ins: two finger pointing. Now in and of itself, it's no big deal, but when you preach one thing, and allow another, it creates all kinds of confusion and doubts.

I'm in Houston.

I thought the bounce was optional for these. :confused:

I know. This upsets me, too. I always use just one finger, especially with coaches. :eek:

Perhaps the mechanics were enforced as part of the whole picture. Perfect signals do not make up for poor calls. And, just becasue you saw non-approved mechanics doesn't mean they were not considered...I'd bet they were considered in concert with all other aspects of the games.

+1

Actually, it is even recommended for sideline throw-ins. :eek:

I must admit that I do this.

That and sometimes failing to put my arm straight up to stop the clock prior to pointing direction when calling an OOB are about the only non-federation mechanics of which I am guilty.

Are those the only mechanical deviations the rest of us are allowed without being called cowardly?

I've said it before, and I will continue to say it that it is a foolish rule.I've heard the arguments about having to replace a backboard after a hard dunk during the warm ups but if that's the case should we not ban dunking period?

I think there are much bigger fish to fry.

I've said it. It's my opinion and that's all there is too it you can't fault me for stating my opinion, so no need to flame me.

Constable, I did not flame you.

My point was - there is a rule (like it or not), and as an official, I am not going to concern myself with "pissing off" (your words) an entire team for enforcing a rule that most, if not everyone, knows.

Should we not give an unsporting T's for taunting or chest thumping because it would "piss off" an entire team? Inappropriate Backboard slaps? Chinups on the rim? Intentional fouls? Enforcing these rules could "piss off" an entire team. Where do we draw the line?

You're entitled to your opinion. I respect it.

Me, in this case, WHACK! And the player and I are going over to the coach and HE is going to explain why the game will start off with the T and shooting foul shots.

JMO

I respect his right to have an opinion. I sureasheck don't respect his opinion though.

Worrying about whether any call is gonna piss off a team is ridiculous in my opinion. And that's not a flame either; it's an opinion.

Exactly. Just like on the court, people need to learn to distinguish between "you're wrong" and "you're an idiot." Only one of those is a flame.

OTOH, some posters need to learn how to say "you're wrong" without implying "you're an idiot." (I'm not implying that JR is among those.)

You're right.

You're also an idiot.


Set yourself up for that one, didn't ya? :D

Uh, takes one to know one. :p

I know, I know......

It's one thing to think a rule should be changed. Heck, I think there's even a thread on that.

It's another to not call the rule.

What about "You're wrong, you idiot"? ;)

Ah, I see you've been talking to my wife!

Not exactly "talking". ;)

So what other rules don't you like? If every offiical decided he/she wasn't going to enforce some rules they don't like would that be okay with you? Enforce the rules and "by rule" your butt is covered. Ignoring a rule will only get you in hot water. Good luck with YOUR OPINION!

Was it in a different post?
 

I don't see where constable says he doesn't enforce it, was it in a different post maybe?

Or are you saying we aren't allowed to have opinions on the rules? You might want to ask the mods delete the rule change threads, then.

Probably inferred from this post.

Though I don't understand the use of a heater in these situations.

Probably inferred from this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by constable View Post
Maybe the official's realized that whacking someone for dunking in the warm up is a great way to piss off an entire team.

In our region, they advise us to warm first. Then T them.
__________________

Sounds like they just want to be sure the crew is wearing jackets.

I resemble this post. :cool:

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post668914

Maybe, but that post stated the direction he'd gotten from the authorities that rule his area. No where did he say he wasn't enforcing a rule because of his own opinion. I don't particularly care for the AP rule the way it stands, but I enforce it. I don't particularly care to grant coaches TO's, either, but I do.

But he did rationalize not calling the T because it would piss off the coach.

That's not the same as stating that he didn't like the rule.

True, but no inference was required.