Pregame dunking - is it being well enforced?

[bearclause]

I know it's illegal under NCAA and NFHS rules, and I have seen it called before. I noticed the case of St Mary's getting called for it last season against Gonzaga. Still - I've seen it go uncalled more often - and sometimes even when the officials are on the floor although the dunking typically isn't all that demonstrative. Some people are even posting video that they've taken of pregame dunks. I actually thought that maybe the rule on pregame dunks had changed, but I didn't see anything.

I remember once seeing a pregame ritual (right in front of the officials) before the CIF state championship in Sacramento where one team was alley-ooping it repeatedly and getting within inches of the rim by dropping it from just above the rim. A coach I know who saw it thought that it should have been called at least once for breaking the spirit of the rule.

I understand that there's not much that can be done if the players come out before the officials take to the floor and can witness the act.

[Mark Padgett]

We have strict enforcement of this rule in our local kids rec league, especially at the 3rd and 4th grade level.

Hey - they shoot at 9 foot hoops.

[deecee]

Depending on the act I might give a warning to one player once. sometimes you can get away with that.

Other than that to me its a pretty black and white case, very little grey area.

[Adam]

Players don't dunk pre-game around here, not after we take the court. Don't know about college (I didn't think it was a rule in college). I know sometimes players will come close, but I'm not calling it unless it's obvious.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bearclause

I remember once seeing a pregame ritual (right in front of the officials) before the CIF state championship in Sacramento where one team was alley-ooping it repeatedly and getting within inches of the rim by dropping it from just above the rim. A coach I know who saw it thought that it should have been called at least once for breaking the spirit of the rule.

Another coach that doesn't know the rules.....

Dropping the ball in is NOT dunking as defined under both NCAA and NFHS rules. To be dunked by definition, the ball must be driven, forced or pushed through the basket. Simply dropping the ball down from above is legal and always has been legal. And that's also the spirit, or purpose and intent of the rule as written.

And no, it ain't offensive basket interference either for having a hand in contact with a ball in the cylinder. There's also a rules exception covering that action.

[bearclause]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Another coach that doesn't know the rules.....

Dropping the ball in is NOT dunking as defined under both NCAA and NFHS rules. To be dunked by definition, the ball must be driven, forced or pushed through the basket. Simply dropping the ball down from above is legal and always has been legal. And that's also the spirit, or purpose and intent of the rule as written.

And no, it ain't offensive basket interference either for having a hand in contact with a ball in the cylinder. There's also a rules exception covering that action.

"Dropping" may not have been the best description. Some of the players were doing all the motions of a dunk and forcing the ball through. The one detail is that they were clearly avoiding hand contact with the rim during the motions.

Here's one (between the legs followed by a dunk), although it looks like it's well before the game has started and the refs are nowhere to be seen. It's not a huge dunk, but it's pretty clear it's being driven through the hoop and his hand contacts the rim.

YouTube - Syracuse Basketball Pre-Game 2010- SICK DUNK!!!

Here's a Michigan player putting on his own little pregame dunk exhibition and even pulling down the collapsible rim a few times:

YouTube - Brent Petway: Air Georgia

I'm just wondering if perhaps there really isn't a consequence to this as long as the officials haven't stepped onto the court. NCAA rules say that the officials' jurisdiction to call infractions starts 30 minutes before the start of the game.

I heard about some HS team that forfeited a playoff game because a player shattered a backboard while dunking during pregame warmups (I believe they weren't required to have a backup). I've also seen that the NCAA Tournament facilities manual requires at least one backup backboard, although there doesn't seem to be any such rule for regular NCAA play. If the kid in the 2nd clip somehow breaks a backboard even without the officials present, it seems a little strange if there aren't consequences for the action.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bearclause

Here's one (between the legs followed by a dunk), although it looks like it's well before the game has started and the refs are nowhere to be seen. It's not a huge dunk, but it's pretty clear it's being driven through the hoop and his hand contacts the rim.

I'm just wondering if perhaps there really isn't a consequence to this as long as the officials haven't stepped onto the court.

Any consequences would be strictly up to the league. If it doesn't happen during the officials' jurisdiction, then it's got absolutely nothing at all to do with us. It is neither our worry nor our concern.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by bearclause

"Dropping" may not have been the best description. Some of the players were doing all the motions of a dunk and forcing the ball through. The one detail is that they were clearly avoiding hand contact with the rim during the motions.


I'm just wondering if perhaps there really isn't a consequence to this as long as the officials haven't stepped onto the court. NCAA rules say that the officials' jurisdiction to call infractions starts 30 minutes before the start of the game.

First, I can guarantee that both those games at major D1 programs were more than 30 minutes before the game because of how empty the arenas were.

Second, as Snaqs said, if I'm not sure, then it's not a T. If they are avoiding hand contact, then it's not dunking and it's not being a T.

Where are you trying to go with this?

[Nevadaref]

There was quite a display prior to the large school State Championship game here. (Yes, the officials were on the floor.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There was quite a display prior to the large school State Championship game here. (Yes, the officials were on the floor.)

And?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There was quite a display prior to the large school State Championship game here. The officials were on the floor.

Had the officials been drinking within twenty-four hours of the tipoff?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bearclause

"Dropping" may not have been the best description. Some of the players were doing all the motions of a dunk and forcing the ball through. The one detail is that they were clearly avoiding hand contact with the rim during the motions.

Good enough for me. The main reason of the rule is to protect the equipment. If they don't touch the rim, it's not a dunk. It's a nit I'm not picking. If it's borderline/questionable, I'll walk up to the player and tell him to not be stupid. They never misunderstand that.

My second year in Wisconsin, I had a coach who wanted me to call this cause a player would drop/lightly push it down (he was almost 7 feet tall and would still have six inches between his hand and the rim). After a couple times of him whining, I told him "that's not a dunk, drop it". When I went to the table, he came over with a rulebook and dropped it on the book I was signing.

That was the one technical foul in my career I didn't call that I still regret to this day. Didn't matter, I ended up calling one during the game (and almost a second one, too). Thankfully, he retired soon thereafter and his replacement is one of the nicest guys you'd ever meet.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

If they don't touch the rim, it's not a dunk.

That statement is 100% wrong. JR will be along shortly to tell you the same.

Where in 4-16 does it mention anything about the ring?

Originally Posted by RichMSN

My second year in Wisconsin, I had a coach who wanted me to call this cause a player would drop/lightly push it down (he was almost 7 feet tall and would still have six inches between his hand and the rim). After a couple times of him whining, I told him "that's not a dunk, drop it". When I went to the table, he came over with a rulebook and dropped it on the book I was signing.

Sorry, Rich, but you got what you deserved. The coach had every right to be upset that you were using your own personal standard instead of the NFHS rules book definition. The coach may have been a jerk, but he was also correct about the rule.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That statement is 100% wrong. JR will be along shortly to tell you the same.

Where in 4-16 does it mention anything about the ring?


Sorry, Rich, but you got what you deserved. The coach had every right to be upset that you were using your own personal standard instead of the NFHS rules book definition. The coach may have been a jerk, but he was also correct about the rule.

Predictable. Out of touch with reality, but predictable.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1) That statement is 100% wrong. JR will be along shortly to tell you the same.

2) The coach had every right to be upset that you were using your own personal standard instead of the NFHS rules book definition. The coach may have been a jerk, but he was also correct about the rule.

1) Nevada is technically correct. The ring doesn't enter into the determination of whether the ball was dunked or not.

2) That I disagree with. Lightly pushing the ball down doesn't equate to driving and/or forcing the ball through the basket imo. It's about the same as following through with your hands on a lay-up. From Rich's description, I'd never call sumthin' like that either.

Fwiw the only part of Rich's original post that I disagree with is that small bit about the rim. Everything else is spot-on imo.