HS Boys Shot Clock Question

[Redneck Ref]

HS boys shot clock (35 seconds). If one of the crew has definite knowledge of time left on the clock after a shot clock violation should time be put back on the clock? Situation that happened was the time on the game clock was 36.5 when the shot clock started. When the shot clock horn went off and the official blew his whistle (violation), then the game clock horn sounded. There was the difference of 1.5 seconds. The crew had different opinions, one thought that the quarter was over, one thought time should be put back on the clock and the other stayed neutral. What should have been the correct ruling?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Redneck Ref

HS boys shot clock (35 seconds). If one of the crew has definite knowledge of time left on the clock after a shot clock violation should time be put back on the clock? Situation that happened was the time on the game clock was 36.5 when the shot clock started. When the shot clock horn went off and the official blew his whistle (violation), then the game clock horn sounded. There was the difference of 1.5 seconds. The crew had different opinions, one thought that the quarter was over, one thought time should be put back on the clock and the other stayed neutral. What should have been the correct ruling?

If the violation did not involve a try then I would put 1.5 back on the clock.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If the violation did not involve a try then I would put 1.5 back on the clock.

Agreed.

And, if the try was in the air when the shot-clock horn went off, then the violation isn't until the try ends -- so the time will be less than 1.5 seconds.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Redneck Ref

HS boys shot clock (35 seconds). If one of the crew has definite knowledge of time left on the clock after a shot clock violation should time be put back on the clock? Situation that happened was the time on the game clock was 36.5 when the shot clock started. When the shot clock horn went off and the official blew his whistle (violation), then the game clock horn sounded. There was the difference of 1.5 seconds. The crew had different opinions, one thought that the quarter was over, one thought time should be put back on the clock and the other stayed neutral. What should have been the correct ruling?

NCAA rule = whatever time is left on the clock once the try fails to contact the ring and an official sounds his whistle.

NBA rule = 1.5 seconds on the game clock and ball awarded to opposing team.

HS rule = check with your state association.

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by Redneck Ref

HS boys shot clock (35 seconds). If one of the crew has definite knowledge of time left on the clock after a shot clock violation should time be put back on the clock? Situation that happened was the time on the game clock was 36.5 when the shot clock started. When the shot clock horn went off and the official blew his whistle (violation), then the game clock horn sounded. There was the difference of 1.5 seconds. The crew had different opinions, one thought that the quarter was over, one thought time should be put back on the clock and the other stayed neutral. What should have been the correct ruling?

CA High School rules...

If there was no try involved, put the time back on the clock...
If a try is involved then you need to determin how much time based on when you think the try ended.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

CA High School rules...

Past this point nothing that you wrote can be substantiated by this official document: http://www.norcalofficials.org/pdf/CIF.pdf

In fact, this sentence can even be read to advocate the reverse of your stated position when there is no try for goal invovled: "This shot-clock horn shall not stop play unless recognized by an official’s whistle."

Until I am shown something definitive, I would stick with the NFHS rule that the game clock stops on the whistle.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Past this point nothing that you wrote cannot be substantiated by this official document: http://www.norcalofficials.org/pdf/CIF.pdf

In fact, this sentence can even be read to advocate the reverse of your stated position when there is no try for goal invovled: "This shot-clock horn shall not stop play unless recognized by an official’s whistle."

Until I am shown something definitive, I would stick with the NFHS rule that the game clock stops on the whistle.

The problem is that the people who write these rules addenda aren't thinking about NFHS rules and definitions when they write them. We see it all the time with "running clock" rules, "no zone defense rules" and other rules that are usually for lower level games. But even these shot clock rules for HS varsity have holes in them that just don't make sense.

The appropriate thing to do is get the actual ruling from a state/local interpreter and go by that. We can guess what someone meant when they wrote the addendum, but it's better to get something official.

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Past this point nothing that you wrote cannot be substantiated by this official document: http://www.norcalofficials.org/pdf/CIF.pdf

In fact, this sentence can even be read to advocate the reverse of your stated position when there is no try for goal invovled: "This shot-clock horn shall not stop play unless recognized by an official’s whistle."

Well, sure... That's true... A shot goes up with one second on the clock, before it hits the rim the horn goes off, ball hits rim defense gains possesion. Why would I blow my whistle to stop play?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

Well, sure... That's true... A shot goes up with one second on the clock, before it hits the rim the horn goes off, ball hits rim defense gains possesion. Why would I blow my whistle to stop play?

Nope. Try released with one second remaining on the shot clock and 3 seconds on the game clock, misses the ring and the horn sounds, but the officials fail to blow a whistle until the game clock expires.

That sentence says that the quarter is over as the shot clock horn doesn't stop play. It is no different than the officials failing to call a traveling violation with two seconds left. You can't go back and fix it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by sseltser

The problem is that the people who write these rules addenda aren't thinking about NFHS rules and definitions when they write them. We see it all the time with "running clock" rules, "no zone defense rules" and other rules that are usually for lower level games. But even these shot clock rules for HS varsity have holes in them that just don't make sense.

The appropriate thing to do is get the actual ruling from a state/local interpreter and go by that. We can guess what someone meant when they wrote the addendum, but it's better to get something official.

Did you notice who wrote that document? The guy is the state rules interpreter.

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nope. Try released with one second remaining on the shot clock and 3 seconds on the game clock, misses the ring and the horn sounds, but the officials fail to blow a whistle until the game clock expires.

That sentence says that the quarter is over as the shot clock horn doesn't stop play. It is no different than the officials failing to call a traveling violation with two seconds left. You can't go back and fix it.

However in the OP it was stated that a violation was called so they would have definite knowledge of how much time should be remaining. Put time back on the clock. Unless you want your playoff run to end right there that is.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

However in the OP it was stated that a violation was called so they would have definite knowledge of how much time should be remaining. Put time back on the clock. Unless you want your playoff run to end right there that is.

So if the officials blow the whistle with 1.2 seconds left on the game clock, but the shot clock expired with 2.7 seconds left, you would reset the game clock to 2.7? Is that the position you are advocating?

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So if the officials blow the whistle with 1.2 seconds left on the game clock, but the shot clock expired with 2.7 seconds left, you would reset the game clock to 2.7? Is that the position you are advocating?

Not neccesisarily, but in the OP time expired and the official knew that there should still be time on the clock. In fact he knew exactly how much should be put on teh clock. So do it. In fact, even in your situation, it would probably be easier to support an official who put the time back on the clock as opposed to one who didn't. Early in the game you probably don't, if the outcome is decided you probably don't, but if the game is tight, you probably reset the game clock. And your assignor would be able to back that up.

Also, depends on the status of the ball at the time the SC horn sounds.

[biz]

I'm confused...Are people saying that if the violation occurred when the shot clock horn sounded (ie there wasn't a shot attempt just before the shot clock expired) and the officials recognized the violation (blew the whistle and patted his/her head) and there was definite knowledge of how much time was on the game clock when the violation occurred that we shouldn't put the 1.5 seconds back on the game clock?

Just looking for clarification.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by biz

I'm confused...Are people saying that if the violation occurred when the shot clock horn sounded (ie there wasn't a shot attempt just before the shot clock expired) and the officials recognized the violation (blew the whistle and patted his/her head) and there was definite knowledge of how much time was on the game clock when the violation occurred that we shouldn't put the 1.5 seconds back on the game clock?

Just looking for clarification.

If the horn sounds when the ball is in a player's hand (or otherwise not in flight on a try), then put the definite knowledge time back on the clock -- 1.5 seconds, in this instance.

I think the discussion is what to do if the ball is in flight on a try. Do we reset to "when the try ends" or "when the whistle blows" (in the specific CA rules example cited -- it's clear what to do in NCAA).