Yet Another Shot Clock Question

[rainmaker]

Well, I'll probably never need to know this again, but today, I wished I did.

Possession arrow points to Team A. Shot clock winding down. A1 goes up to shoot. Before she releases, B1 goes up to block. At the top of the jump, the ball is trapped between the four hands of A1 and B1, just as the shot clock buzzes. Now what?

Partner and I had absolutely no clue, but we figured no one else did either, so we gave the ball to A with a new shot clock. No one complained. A won by 30, so we didn't give the game away. But I'm wondering what we SHOULD have done. NCAA rules. Would NAIA be different?

[ref18]

Now, I don't have any rulebooks to reference, but looking at this situation using common sense, a few possible outcomes present themselves.

1. Call held ball, but since A has the arrow, you're going to have to put at least 1 second on the shot clock. (This is the situation that I would go with)

2. Call a held ball, give A the ball, reset the shot clock.

3. Call a shot clock violation on A. (in the situation that you described, with A being up 30, I would tend to rule in favour of the loosing team in a situation where I don't have a clue.

That's just my opinions, I don't have rulebooks with me to look anything up in. So I'm probably wrong, but I thought I may as well take a shot at it.

[Lotto]

I think you have to decide which came first here---the prevention of the release by B1, or the shot clock buzzer. Since the buzzer occured "at the top of the jump," if there had been no buzzer, there still would have been a chance that A1 could have released the ball on her way down to the floor. So, I'd say that the shot clock violation occured first. Ball to B, arrow stays with A.

I'm probably wrong, too.

[ChuckElias]

I think ref18 and Lotto give pretty good thoughts here. I think ref18 has given you the only possible options. And unfortunately, Juulie, the one you chose is the only one that I think was definitely incorrect.

Since the try never left A1's hands, Team A never lost team control. That means that if there is a held ball with the arrow pointing to Team A, there is no reset of the shot clock. That's NCAA 2-13.7.d.

So that leaves held ball to A with the time remaining on the shot clock, or shot clock violation and ball to B with a new 30 (women) or 35 (men).

And the one you choose will depend on whether you think B1 prevented the release of the ball prior to the shot clock horn sounding, or after it sounded. If your whistle blew for a held ball before the shot clock sounded, then give the ball to Team A with 1 second on the shot clock. If the horn sounded before your whistle, then I'd go with the shot clock violation.

And hopefully, you will need to know this stuff for next season, right?!?!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I think ref18 and Lotto give pretty good thoughts here. I think ref18 has given you the only possible options. And unfortunately, Juulie, the one you chose is the only one that I think was definitely incorrect.

And hopefully, you will need to know this stuff for next season, right?!?!

Yea, I was pretty sure it was the worst choice, but in the pressure of the moment, we were just trying to get past the brain cramp.

I think call the violation first, give ball to B, leave the arrow to A makes the most sense. Everyone wins a little, everyone loses a little.

...and I think my need to know this next season is more wishful than hopeful!

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Yea, I was pretty sure it was the worst choice, but in the pressure of the moment, we were just trying to get past the brain cramp.

I think call the violation first, give ball to B, leave the arrow to A makes the most sense. Everyone wins a little, everyone loses a little.

...and I think my need to know this next season is more wishful than hopeful!

You're just lucky Chuck wasn't at your game otherwise he would have yelled and screamed at you that you did the wrong thing.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Lotto
Since the buzzer occured "at the top of the jump," if there had been no buzzer, there still would have been a chance that A1 could have released the ball on her way down to the floor.
I'm probably wrong, too.

Lotto,
I think that this part of your post is probably wrong.
The NFHS case book (4.25.2) states that a held ball results immediately when the release is prevented. Here that would mean a held ball was caused at the top of the jump, and releasing the ball on the way down wouldn't matter at all.

For NCAA the player may have to return to the floor with the ball, I'm not sure about this nuance. The language of 4-35-1 AR 28 seems to indicate that either one or both players must return to the floor holding the ball.

For those that work NCAA ball I'd be interested in what your instructors tell you about how to call this.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Lotto,
I think that this part of your post is probably wrong.
The NFHS case book (4.25.2) states that a held ball results immediately when the release is prevented. Here that would mean a held ball was caused at the top of the jump, and releasing the ball on the way down wouldn't matter at all.

For NCAA the player may have to return to the floor with the ball, I'm not sure about this nuance. The language of 4-35-1 AR 28 seems to indicate that either one or both players must return to the floor holding the ball.

For those that work NCAA ball I'd be interested in what your instructors tell you about how to call this.

Nothing in the rule itself states or implies an airborne player with the ball MUST return to the floor before a held ball is called - although I will admit that in practice I've never seen an airborne player NOT return to the floor eventually , held ball or not.

The case play you referenced is there to help us distinguish between travel & held ball I believe.

As has already been said, it's a held ball if you judge it happened before the shot clock buzzer - only reset the shot clock if the defense has the arrow, otherwise put whatever time you judged elapsed between the whistle & the buzzer (no lag time). If the held ball happened after the buzzer then it's a shot clock violation, defense gets the ball with a full shot clock.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
As has already been said, it's a held ball if you judge it happened before the shot clock buzzer - only reset the shot clock if the defense has the arrow, otherwise put whatever time you judged elapsed between the whistle & the buzzer (no lag time). If the held ball happened after the buzzer then it's a shot clock violation, defense gets the ball with a full shot clock.

...and A keeps the arrow.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

...and A keeps the arrow.

Yep, it's turned over on the violation, not the held ball so the arrow stays the same.

[Adam]

I think if I'm A, I'd rather have the violation called than burn a possession arrow opportunity with 1 second on the shot clock.

[devdog69]

We were told at a camp this summer, can't remember which one to handle this the way Julie did if you couldn't determine that the jump occurred with at least a second or more remaining on shot clock. I don't really agree with it, just saying that some assignor or clinicial told us to handle it that way. I would really try to go with the violation as the first choice and second put a second back on the shot clock if it was clearly whistle-horn.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by devdog69
We were told at a camp this summer, can't remember which one to handle this the way Julie did if you couldn't determine that the jump occurred with at least a second or more remaining on shot clock.

You were told to give the offense the ball via the arrow and reset the shot clock?!?!?!