Held Ball or Live Ball?

[bas2456]

Had a couple of plays tonight where A1 jumps to shoot, and B1 gets a hand on the ball, preventing A1 from getting the shot off, and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball. Held ball (4.25.2)

Hypothetically, let's say A1 doesn't get airborne, but everything else is the same.

Would you call a held ball here?

[just another ref]

4-25-2 deals specifically with an airborne player. The special circumstance is obvious. If A1 returns to the floor holding the ball, you've gotta call something.

In your play, A1 is not airborne, so the fact that the shot is released alone is not enough to make it a held ball. Refer to 4-25-1. Judgment call.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by bas2456

Hypothetically, let's say A1 doesn't get airborne, but everything else is the same.

Would you call a held ball here?

As JAR says, it's a judgement call. That's why you get paid the big bucks.

[BillyMac]

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

Who says that this job is easy? I agree with Indianaref and just another ref. This is why we get paid the big bucks. $86.63 for a varsity game here in the Constitution State.

[shutupneff]

What happens if the shooter doesn't leave the ground, but still travels due to the blocked shot? Reffing youth leagues this last year, I had plenty of instances where a defender would knock over the (small and uncoordinated) ball carrier by only hitting the ball. Even though I was unsure of the rule, I almost always called this a held ball (unless it was just a tap).

Also, what should be called if a player leaves the ground to pass, and a defender's hand prevents them from releasing the ball before they return to the ground?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by shutupneff

What happens if the shooter doesn't leave the ground, but still travels due to the blocked shot? Reffing youth leagues this last year, I had plenty of instances where a defender would knock over the (small and uncoordinated) ball carrier by only hitting the ball. Even though I was unsure of the rule, I almost always called this a held ball (unless it was just a tap).

Still a judgment call. Was there a held ball followed by a travel? Or did the shooter draw the ball back and travel on his own?

Also, what should be called if a player leaves the ground to pass, and a defender's hand prevents them from releasing the ball before they return to the ground?

4-25-2 says "prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try."

[APG]

Originally Posted by shutupneff

What happens if the shooter doesn't leave the ground, but still travels due to the blocked shot? Reffing youth leagues this last year, I had plenty of instances where a defender would knock over the (small and uncoordinated) ball carrier by only hitting the ball. Even though I was unsure of the rule, I almost always called this a held ball (unless it was just a tap).

Also, what should be called if a player leaves the ground to pass, and a defender's hand prevents them from releasing the ball before they return to the ground?

4.25.2 covers this play.

[shutupneff]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Still a judgment call. Was there a held ball followed by a travel? Or did the shooter draw the ball back and travel on his own?

It's really hard to say. In most of these cases (the ones that I did call held balls), the defenders' hands were on the balls the entire time until the offensive player was way off balance.

Imagine a play where A1 is holding the ball firmly in front of his chest. B1, while attempting to steal the ball, ends up pushing on the ball so forcefully that A1 goes straight down onto his behind. At no point does B1 have any control of the ball, and there is no tie up.

That's essentially the the type of held ball situation I was seeing, except that 95% of the time, A1 was starting to go up for a shot (in that full-bodied fling that young kids tend to use that puts the ball right in front of the defender for almost a full second).

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by shutupneff

Imagine a play where A1 is holding the ball firmly in front of his chest. B1, while attempting to steal the ball, ends up pushing on the ball so forcefully that A1 goes straight down onto his behind. At no point does B1 have any control of the ball, and there is no tie up.

That's essentially the the type of held ball situation I was seeing, except that 95% of the time, A1 was starting to go up for a shot (in that full-bodied fling that young kids tend to use that puts the ball right in front of the defender for almost a full second).

Two things:

1. Read 4-25-1: Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

Sounds a lot like the play you describe fits this description.

2. In a game involving young kids, when in doubt, held ball is not a bad option, in a lot of different situations..

[shutupneff]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Two things:

1. Read 4-25-1: Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

Sounds a lot like the play you describe fits this description.

2. In a game involving young kids, when in doubt, held ball is not a bad option, in a lot of different situations..

I am familiar with the rule (except that I've foolishly continually glossed over the word pass in the second part, as evidenced by my earlier secondary question), it's just that I'm just now realizing that being pushed to the court, even legally, would constitute undue roughness. I've always just thought of it as, "Blow the whistle before a wrestling match breaks out," but that's obviously a bit too close-minded. Thanks.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by bas2456

Hypothetically, let's say A1 doesn't get airborne, but everything else is the same.

Would you call a held ball here?

In this case I would only call a held ball if A1 were to travel (or other violation) due to B1's block. If A1 doesn't violate, play on.