1st time ever

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

Could someone with books post the definition for LGP? I don't have mine with at work today. I think it would help move this conversation along. I might be not seeing the complete picture here, but I'd like to read it from the book.

4-23 GUARDING
ART. 1 . . . Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an
offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard
and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is
entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first
without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder,
hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position
if contact occurs.
ART. 2 . . . To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard’s torso must be facing the opponent.
ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne,
provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it
is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.
ART. 4 . . . Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without
the ball:
a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal
position before the opponent left the floor.
ART. 5 . . . Guarding a moving opponent without the ball:
a. Time and distance are factors required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. The guard must give the opponent the time and/or distance to avoid
contact.
c. The distance need not be more than two strides.
d. If the opponent is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position
before the opponent left the floor.

[jdw3018]

Yeah, what grunewar said.

Now, I have to leave this debate as I'm on the road the rest of the weekend. Have a good one!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by grunewar

4-23 GUARDING
ART. 1 . . . . Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

Note that this has NOTHING to do with legal guarding position.

And that's why a player that never faced a dribbler can still have a legal position on the court without having a legal guarding position, and be fouled by a dribbbler who runs over that opponent.

The easiest way to call plays like this is to apply screening principles to the dribbler, as we have been directed to do in the COMMENT in case book play 10.6.7.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by grunewar

4-23 GUARDING
ART. 1 . . . Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an
offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard
and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is
entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first
without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder,
hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position
if contact occurs.
ART. 2 . . . To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard’s torso must be facing the opponent.
ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne,
provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it
is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.
ART. 4 . . . Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without
the ball:
a. No time or distance is required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal
position before the opponent left the floor.
ART. 5 . . . Guarding a moving opponent without the ball:
a. Time and distance are factors required to obtain an initial legal position.
b. The guard must give the opponent the time and/or distance to avoid
contact.
c. The distance need not be more than two strides.
d. If the opponent is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position
before the opponent left the floor.

How long do I have to be stationary before I no longer need to have a LGP?

B1 has his back to A1 within 6' of A1. A1 dribbles to his right. B1 moves to his right, cutting off A1's path to the basket, but becomes stationary before A1 contacts B1.

B1 never had a LGP as he was never facing A1. B1 moved towards A1 so would have lost LGP even if he had earlier established it. However, B1 was stationary when A1 contacted him.

Is this really a player control foul?

[Adam]

Yes. Time and distance aren't a factor when the player has the ball. PC foul.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

How long do I have to be stationary before I no longer need to have a LGP?

B1 has his back to A1 within 6' of A1. A1 dribbles to his right. B1 moves to his right, cutting off A1's path to the basket, but becomes stationary before A1 contacts B1.

B1 never had a LGP as he was never facing A1. B1 moved towards A1 so would have lost LGP even if he had earlier established it. However, B1 was stationary when A1 contacted him.

Is this really a player control foul?

I would use "screening" principles on this (as opposed to "guarding" principles). Thus, if A1 is moving, time and distance are required.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Thus, if A1 is moving, time and distance are required.

Even when A1 has the ball?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I would use "screening" principles on this (as opposed to "guarding" principles). Thus, if A1 is moving, time and distance are required.

That makes sense to me. Since he's not facing the player he's not guarding him, but he did set a screen.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Even when A1 has the ball?

Having the ball only makes a difference if you are guarding him. To be guarding him, he'd have to have a LGP. Since he doesn't, we use the screening principle to determine if he legally acquired the position.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Even when A1 has the ball?

See the "COMMENT" in case book play 10.6.7.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

See the "COMMENT" in case book play 10.6.7.

I get the application, but this case play is in the reverse; a player with the ball screening an opponent without the ball (obviously). It really says nothing about a player without the ball and his back turned and screening a ball handler without LGP.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It really says nothing about a player without the ball and his back turned and screening a ball handler without LGP.

Disagree. It lays the concept out for you.

In the first sentence of the COMMENT it states that screening principles apply to the dribbler.

The last sentence of the COMMENT states "If both the dribbler and opponent are moving in exactly the same path and same direction, the player behind is responsible for contact which results if the player in front slows down or stops." Iow you have a defender who gained a legal position on the court(without having to establish LGP) in front of the dribbler and in the same path and direction of the dribbler. The defender can now slow down or stop in the dribbler's path, and if the dribbler plows into him, it's on the dribbler.

Pretty clear to me....and it sounds just like what we're discussing.