1st time ever

[Pantherdreams]

First I assume he tripped over the down player. Ie. Actually contact, not just the player tripping over this own 2 feet trying to make a fancy hop over the downed player.

If it is as a result of contact I'm gonna have to go with the foul. Tough break for the kid who tried to make the hustle play though.

I can't really argue he's established a cylinder from the souls of his feet to the ceiling that extends 6 feet horizontally across the floor. He is entitled to a spot but if he was standing and his feet were set but he was bent at the waist outside his cylinder to make contact with a shoulder or sticking his arms out and clotheslining people it would be a foul. He's way outside any sorted granted space here.

Tough call to make and everyone hates your guts but I'm going with a foul.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

First I assume he tripped over the down player. Ie. Actually contact, not just the player tripping over this own 2 feet trying to make a fancy hop over the downed player.

If it is as a result of contact I'm gonna have to go with the foul. Tough break for the kid who tried to make the hustle play though.

I can't really argue he's established a cylinder from the souls of his feet to the ceiling that extends 6 feet horizontally across the floor. He is entitled to a spot but if he was standing and his feet were set but he was bent at the waist outside his cylinder to make contact with a shoulder or sticking his arms out and clotheslining people it would be a foul. He's way outside any sorted granted space here.

Tough call to make and everyone hates your guts but I'm going with a foul.

If the player is not moving (and even if he is in certain directions) you cannot penalize a player for being on the ground in NFHS.

Verticality (or a 'cylinder') has nothing to do with it.

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

If the player is not moving (and even if he is in certain directions) you cannot penalize a player for being on the ground in NFHS.

Verticality (or a 'cylinder') has nothing to do with it.

Interesting . .. can't speak for the NFHS we play FIBA. By our rule your initial legal guarding position requires both feet to a planted on the floor. Ten any contact created out side your space until you restablish a new LGP is your foul.

SO for us kid on the floor is not holding a legal guarding position and is responsible for the contact since the offense is entitled to legally take the space he's being tripped in.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Interesting . .. can't speak for the NFHS we play FIBA. By our rule your initial legal guarding position requires both feet to a planted on the floor. Ten any contact created out side your space until you restablish a new LGP is your foul.

SO for us kid on the floor is not holding a legal guarding position and is responsible for the contact since the offense is entitled to legally take the space he's being tripped in.

Didn't think about FIBA rules. I obviously have no idea what your rules say.

The NCAA has a clear case play that makes this contact a foul. That is not the case in NFHS, however.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Interesting . .. can't speak for the NFHS we play FIBA.

Then why are you? If you're answering questions using FIBA rules, you should say so in your answer. That cuts out the confusion a la posting an incorrect answer for FED rulings like you did above.

The play being discussed is not and never has been a foul under NFHS rules. NCAA rules are different.

Player on Floor Legal Guarding Position

That's just the latest thread. There are numerous other ones on this play, all containing the exact same rules citations. This seems to come up almost monthly..and it ends up being answered the exact same way monthly also.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

i'm calling a foul...
1) the contact by the defensive player (who does not have LGP) is what caused the ball handler to fall - that is a foul.
2) the contact interrupted the RSBQ (rhthym, speed, balance, quickness) of the ball handler - that is a foul.
3) after establishing LGP, the defensive player did not move to maintain his LGP - that is a foul.

LGP has nothing to do with this. Assuming the player on the ground was not moving, s/he is entitled to the spot under FED rules. There's a specific case play or interp on this.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Then why are you? If you're answering questions using FIBA rules, you should say so in your answer. That cuts out the confusion a la posting an incorrect answer for FED rulings like you did above.

In fairness to Pantherdreams, the OP didn't specify a rules set (although the OP is from MI). I agree it would be helpful if all questions / answers specidifed the set; and I agree the Forum usually defaults to FED, then NCAA, then FIBA, then NBA, if not specified.

[Refsmitty]

My bad... I will note NFHS from now on

[rwest]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

LGP has nothing to do with this. Assuming the player on the ground was not moving, s/he is entitled to the spot under FED rules. There's a specific case play or interp on this.



In fairness to Pantherdreams, the OP didn't specify a rules set (although the OP is from MI). I agree it would be helpful if all questions / answers specidifed the set; and I agree the Forum usually defaults to FED, then NCAA, then FIBA, then NBA, if not specified.

Bob,

What case play number or interpretation are you referring to?

Thanks!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rwest

Bob,

What case play number or interpretation are you referring to?

Thanks!

Now that I think about it, this might be a case that was removed without comment a couple of years ago.

[jeffpea]

i'm calling a foul...
1) the contact by the defensive player (who does not have LGP) is what caused the ball handler to fall - that is a foul.
2) the contact interrupted the RSBQ (rhthym, speed, balance, quickness) of the ball handler - that is a foul.
3) after establishing LGP, the defensive player did not move to maintain his LGP - that is a foul.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

i'm calling a foul...
1) the contact by the defensive player (who does not have LGP) is what caused the ball handler to fall - that is a foul.
2) the contact interrupted the RSBQ (rhthym, speed, balance, quickness) of the ball handler - that is a foul.
3) after establishing LGP, the defensive player did not move to maintain his LGP - that is a foul.

1. Contact that causes a player to fall is not always a foul.
2. See one.
3. A stationary player does not need LGP.

[doubleringer]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

.
3. A stationary player does not need LGP.

[/I]

I disagree with this statement. What if a stationary player has one foot on the OOB line and there is contact?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

[/I]

I disagree with this statement. What if a stationary player has one foot on the OOB line and there is contact?

Well, in my opinion a stationary player may contact the OOB line and still not be responsible for contact. Others will disagree with that.

It's important to understand when LGP is needed (when a defensive player is moving when contact is made) and when it's not needed (a stationary player).

Think about this...a player is facing away from the ball handler, defending another player. He is standing still. The dribbler runs over him from behind. What do you have?

[doubleringer]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Well, in my opinion a stationary player may contact the OOB line and still not be responsible for contact. Others will disagree with that.

People will disagree with you becuase it was a rules change not long ago. If a player does not have both feet on the playing floor, they do not have LGP so any contact after that is on them. This is not an opinion matter, it is a rule.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

People will disagree with you becuase it was a rules change not long ago. If a player does not have both feet on the playing floor, they do not have LGP so any contact after that is on them. This is not an opinion matter, it is a rule.

I know the rule, and I think that's been the rule quite a while - a player cannot have LGP while touching OOB. However, LGP isn't required for a stationary player.

And, how about answering my other question?