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Old Tue Feb 09, 2010, 08:14am
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Player on Floor Legal Guarding Position

I was wondering how you would call this. A1 shoots ball, A2 and B2 are going for rebound and B2 looses balance and goes to the floor, ball is loose, A3 picks up ball and turns to shoot but trips over B2's mid section, and misses shot. Is this a foul on B2. B2 layed still.
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Old Tue Feb 09, 2010, 08:28am
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Lgp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gargil View Post
I was wondering how you would call this. A1 shoots ball, A2 and B2 are going for rebound and B2 looses balance and goes to the floor, ball is loose, A3 picks up ball and turns to shoot but trips over B2's mid section, and misses shot. Is this a foul on B2. B2 layed still.
This is similar to a controversial question on our state test two years ago. State interp would, if applied to this situation, ignore the reality that a player laying on the floor has not established legal guarding position.
Interested in others' insights.
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Old Tue Feb 09, 2010, 08:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gargil View Post
I was wondering how you would call this. A1 shoots ball, A2 and B2 are going for rebound and B2 looses balance and goes to the floor, ball is loose, A3 picks up ball and turns to shoot but trips over B2's mid section, and misses shot. Is this a foul on B2. B2 layed still.


B2 does NOT have a legal guarding position BUT, B2 does have a legal position on the court and A3 has either committed a player control foul or a traveling violation. I would go with the traveling violation.

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Old Tue Feb 09, 2010, 09:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
B2 does NOT have a legal guarding position BUT, B2 does have a legal position on the court and A3 has either committed a player control foul or a traveling violation.
Agree. There used to be a case play for this exact situation but it has disappeared.

The NCAA ruling is different though, I think.

Went to an old case book and looked it up. From the 2001-02 case book:

10.6.1 SITUATION E: B1 attempts to steal the ball from stationary A1 who is holding the ball. B1 misses the ball and falls to the floor. In dribbling away, A1 contact's B1's leg, loses control of the ball and falls to the floor.
RULING: No infraction or foul has occurred and play continues. Unless B1 made an effort to trip or block A1, he/she is entitled to a position on the court even though it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down.

The concept used in the RULING of that case play hasn't changed afaik.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 09:11am.
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Old Tue Feb 09, 2010, 09:03am
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Play similar to this happened last night in the Woman's NC vs Duke game. Announcers talked about it briefly. In this particular instance it was a no call as it came after the shot and I guess the officials decided there was no advantage....
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Old Tue Feb 09, 2010, 09:19am
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4-23?

ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne,
provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it
is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.
f. The guard may be lying on the floor after having obtained legal guarding position.

Am I correct in maintaining that without something like "f" above (which doesn't exist), lying on the floor does not constitute LGP?

This occurred last night in a GV I was observing: Defender B1 picked up her fifth foul being the one on the floor over which rebounder A1 tripped backwards. The lack of clarity on this exact situation is what led the official to call a blocking foul on B1 and the defender's coach to contest the call.

I'd appreciate further clarification on this, especially the foundational phraseology in the rules or casebook or vanished interps which would expect a travelling violation on A1.

When it happens, I wanna get it right.

Thanx!
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Old Tue Feb 09, 2010, 09:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
This is similar to a controversial question on our state test two years ago. State interp would, if applied to this situation, ignore the reality that a player laying on the floor has not established legal guarding position.
Interested in others' insights.
LGP not required if the player isn't moving, Freddy. Legal play in NFHS.
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Old Tue Feb 09, 2010, 09:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne,
provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it
is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.
f. The guard may be lying on the floor after having obtained legal guarding position.

Am I correct in maintaining that without something like "f" above (which doesn't exist), lying on the floor does not constitute LGP?

This occurred last night in a GV I was observing: Defender B1 picked up her fifth foul being the one on the floor over which rebounder A1 tripped backwards. The lack of clarity on this exact situation is what led the official to call a blocking foul on B1 and the defender's coach to contest the call.

I'd appreciate further clarification on this, especially the foundational phraseology in the rules or casebook or vanished interps which would expect a travelling violation on A1.

When it happens, I wanna get it right.

Thanx!
You're correct, but not completely. A stationary player does not need LGP to be legal. LGP allows them to move, but a stationary player can always hold their spot without fear of a foul.

If the player in the game you observed didn't move once on the floor and the offense tripped, I wouldn't have called it. I have had a partner call a foul on a similar play where the floor-bound defender actually rolled into the offensive player, tripping her.

I believe he caught some heat from table for that one later.
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Old Tue Feb 09, 2010, 09:24am
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Eureka!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
From the 2001-02 case book:
10.6.1 SITUATION E: B1 attempts to steal the ball from stationary A1 who is holding the ball. B1 misses the ball and falls to the floor. In dribbling away, A1 contact's B1's leg, loses control of the ball and falls to the floor.
RULING: No infraction or foul has occurred and play continues. Unless B1 made an effort to trip or block A1, he/she is entitled to a position on the court even though it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down.
Thanx JR. Your answer to my inquiry came in before I could hit the submit button. I'll study your old interp.
And Snaqs, too. You're both as quick with the reply as you probably are getting to the endline as new L in transition.

Last edited by Freddy; Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 09:36am.
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Old Tue Feb 09, 2010, 09:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grunewar View Post
Play similar to this happened last night in the Woman's NC vs Duke game. Announcers talked about it briefly. In this particular instance it was a no call as it came after the shot and I guess the officials decided there was no advantage....
NCAA deems this a blocking foul.
A.R. 101. B1 slips to the floor in the free throw lane. A1 (with his/her
back to B1, who is prone) receives a pass, turns and, in his or
her attempt to drive to the basket, trips and falls over B1.
RULING: Foul on B1, who has taken an illegal defensive position.
(Rule 4-35.4.a)


JR has correctly posted the most current NFHS ruling, which as noted has disappeared without comment from the Case Book.
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Old Tue Feb 09, 2010, 09:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post

Defender B1 picked up her fifth foul being the one on the floor over which rebounder A1 tripped backwards. The lack of clarity on this exact situation is what led the official to call a blocking foul on B1 and the defender's coach to contest the call.

I'd appreciate further clarification on this, especially the foundational phraseology in the rules or casebook or vanished interps which would expect a travelling violation on A1.

When it happens, I wanna get it right.
The relevant rules citation is found in 4-23-1--"Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided that such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."

Forget LGP; it isn't relevant in this situation. The cite above is.

Hope that helps....
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Old Tue Feb 09, 2010, 11:16am
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ok, i'm confused, so I'll play devil's advocate for a minute...

A1 is dribbling up the floor and say for the sake of argument, B1 is lying totally still on the floor (or on all 4's, barking like a dog from way back in the day

With B1 lying perfectly still, A1 dribbles and trips over him/her and falls, this would still NOT be a foul on B1? I know LGP is two feet on the floor, torso facing opponent, but I also understand everyone being entitled to their spot on the floor...

I actually had a rebound situation last year happen to me...B1 falls on the floor, A1 gets rebound and turns to go upcourt, trips over B1, falls, I call block (now granted, B1 WAS moving around like a turtle that got flipped on its back, so B1 was NOT totally stationary, which made it easy).

I'm not trying to be a [email protected]$$, I'm just really trying to understand this. I know if there is even a LITTLE movement by floor-ridden B1, we've got a block. Just trying to grasp the other side of it. sorry
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Old Tue Feb 09, 2010, 11:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
Agree. There used to be a case play for this exact situation but it has disappeared.

The NCAA ruling is different though, I think.

Went to an old case book and looked it up. From the 2001-02 case book:

10.6.1 SITUATION E: B1 attempts to steal the ball from stationary A1 who is holding the ball. B1 misses the ball and falls to the floor. In dribbling away, A1 contact's B1's leg, loses control of the ball and falls to the floor.
RULING: No infraction or foul has occurred and play continues. Unless B1 made an effort to trip or block A1, he/she is entitled to a position on the court even though it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down.

The concept used in the RULING of that case play hasn't changed afaik.
Yes, the NCAA rule is different. I know because I called a travel in this situation in the very first NCAA game I ever worked. Didn't feel right about it and my partners weren't sure when we talked about it. So I looked it up (instead of coming on here and asking blindly ) and saw that NFHS and NCAA have differing rules.
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Old Tue Feb 09, 2010, 11:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vbzebra View Post
ok, i'm confused, so I'll play devil's advocate for a minute...

A1 is dribbling up the floor and say for the sake of argument, B1 is lying totally still on the floor (or on all 4's, barking like a dog from way back in the day

With B1 lying perfectly still, A1 dribbles and trips over him/her and falls, this would still NOT be a foul on B1? I know LGP is two feet on the floor, torso facing opponent, but I also understand everyone being entitled to their spot on the floor...

I actually had a rebound situation last year happen to me...B1 falls on the floor, A1 gets rebound and turns to go upcourt, trips over B1, falls, I call block (now granted, B1 WAS moving around like a turtle that got flipped on its back, so B1 was NOT totally stationary, which made it easy).

I'm not trying to be a [email protected]$$, I'm just really trying to understand this. I know if there is even a LITTLE movement by floor-ridden B1, we've got a block. Just trying to grasp the other side of it. sorry
If B1 is lying still, he can't be responsible for the foul in NFHS. He's entitled to that spot on the floor and the responsibility is on the dribbler (or any other player) to avoid contact.
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Old Tue Feb 09, 2010, 03:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018 View Post
If B1 is lying still, he can't be responsible for the foul in NFHS. He's entitled to that spot on the floor and the responsibility is on the dribbler (or any other player) to avoid contact.

He doesn't even have to be still. B1 falls to the floor. He rolls away from A1 as he attempts to get up. A1 runs over him. This is not a foul on B1.
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