Vote of Confidence?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

How would you have felt if you found out that a partner of yours had told a coach that he had to make a lot of calls because you weren't making them?

If that were true and was already obvious to everyone, I have no problem with it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If that were true and was already obvious to everyone, I have no problem with it.

The assigner knew what he was doing when he assigned you with those two. I think the best thing in this situation is to say nothing -- let the coach do the talking, empathize without throwing anyone under the bus, and get out of Dodge.

I don't think you meant to throw anyone under the bus, but you may have.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by richmsn

the assigner knew what he was doing when he assigned you with those two. I think the best thing in this situation is to say nothing -- let the coach do the talking, empathize without throwing anyone under the bus, and get out of dodge.

I don't think you meant to throw anyone under the bus, but you may have.

+1

[just another ref]

I'm a little vague about where the line is drawn on what constitutes "throwing someone under the bus."

Years ago, I was watching a game as a spectator when an intentional foul was called on a made basket. Officials awarded 3 free throws, "one for the foul, two for the intentional." This struck several people in the crowd as wrong. Some of the people asked me.

"Was that right?"

How do you defend this?

"No, they made a mistake." And I quoted the correct ruling.

Some here said that I had stabbed the officials on the court in the back. I said I think not, but to each his own.

In the case at hand, the fact that I did extend my area and made so many calls was obvious and undeniable. We were not totally on the same page.
Does this reflect negatively on me or them? Like so many things, it depends on who you ask. The crowd was mainly on me. "THAT GUY is killing us." The coach took swipes at both during the game.
I made a call for him. "Can't somebody else call a foul?"
I made a call against him. "That's not your call."

If anything I said or did before, during, or after this game can be considered throwing anyone under anything, feel free to throw me with them.

[Kingsman1288]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I
Years ago, I was watching a game as a spectator when an intentional foul was called on a made basket. Officials awarded 3 free throws, "one for the foul, two for the intentional." This struck several people in the crowd as wrong. Some of the people asked me.

"Was that right?"

How do you defend this?

"No, they made a mistake." And I quoted the correct ruling.

Some here said that I had stabbed the officials on the court in the back

In that particular situation, I think it would have been best to say nothing at all or if you can't get away with saying nothing, play dumb. By telling the fans the officials were wrong and quoting the correct ruling, you basically gave them all the ammo they needed to heckle the officials. Ex: "Joe over here is an official too and says you suck"

While I don't think you meant to throw your partners under the bus, you did. By telling the coach you had to be the man and step up and make calls outside your PCA, you basically told the coach that your partners sucked and you had to do everything for them.

When confronted with a situation like this, as has been said above, it's best to say nothing. Remember, a coach or whomever you are speaking to cannot "misquote" silence.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Kingsman1288

In that particular situation, I think it would have been best to say nothing at all or if you can't get away with saying nothing, play dumb. By telling the fans the officials were wrong and quoting the correct ruling, you basically gave them all the ammo they needed to heckle the officials. Ex: "Joe over here is an official too and says you suck"

While I don't think you meant to throw your partners under the bus, you did. By telling the coach you had to be the man and step up and make calls outside your PCA, you basically told the coach that your partners sucked and you had to do everything for them.

When confronted with a situation like this, as has been said above, it's best to say nothing. Remember, a coach or whomever you are speaking to cannot "misquote" silence.

I'm not going to be lumped in with clowns who don't know the rules in that situation.

As for the situation with the H coach, I would just direct him to the assigner if at all possible.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I'm not going to be lumped in with clowns who don't know the rules in that situation.

As for the situation with the H coach, I would just direct him to the assigner if at all possible.

The problem is this: You're not in an association meeting. You're sitting in the stands with a bunch of ignorant chuckleheads who want someone, anyone to validate their opinion that the officials suck. Even if those guys on the floor are right and you tell them, they then think you AND the officials are morons.

I've been in that position. My response? I'd have my phone in my hands looking like I wasn't even watching, sending an email or something. I do not, will not comment on the officiating with anyone other than another official.

As far as running into the coach in a BK, I would've said hello to him and left. If he brought up the game, I would've listened politely and left. The assigner knows he assigned weaker officials to the game and the last thing he needs is for the strong official on the crew to give the coach ammunition to go back to the assigner and say "I know you sent us two weak ones -- even JAR said he had to expand his.....", etc.

Maybe I'm overly paranoid. But beyond being polite and saying hi to a coach away from the gym, I'm not saying much else.

I'm trying not to judge -- I felt I was asked for an opinion and I gave it. Lord knows, I'm not always right....

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm a little vague about where the line is drawn on what constitutes "throwing someone under the bus."

the line is right where you say or imply or strongly hint that you were trying to "rescue" the game from the partners. Even to try to take the blame is just backhanded slamming.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Years ago, I was watching a game as a spectator when an intentional foul was called on a made basket. Officials awarded 3 free throws, "one for the foul, two for the intentional." This struck several people in the crowd as wrong. Some of the people asked me.

"Was that right?"

How do you defend this?

"No, they made a mistake." And I quoted the correct ruling.

Some here said that I had stabbed the officials on the court in the back. I said I think not, but to each his own.

"I'm not sure we saw the whole situation." "Those guys are pretty respected, I expect they know what they're doing" "Howard is our rules guy for all the little details. you'll have to ask him." "Sorry, I was talking on the phone" "Oh, I wasn't watching. Have you seen a red cap laying here somewhere?"

Originally Posted by just another ref

In the case at hand, the fact that I did extend my area and made so many calls was obvious and undeniable. We were not totally on the same page.

And what did you do in pre-game to get on the same page, and to be on the same page? I mean, in that game, knowing this new guy hadn't done 3-whistle before, you might have added a lot to his learning by really bending over backward to see that he DID call a few fouls and that they were good calls. End of the first quarter, if he's still pretty overwhelmed, you say okay, let's lock down in positions and just focus on the action, or give him carte blanche to call all over the floor. "I don't care where the next foul happens, it's your whistle". This is the kind of stuff I've experienced at 3-whistle camps for beginners and it really helps a lot to get over that first big barrier.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Does this reflect negatively on me or them? Like so many things, it depends on who you ask. The crowd was mainly on me. "THAT GUY is killing us." The coach took swipes at both during the game.
I made a call for him. "Can't somebody else call a foul?"
I made a call against him. "That's not your call."

The crowd is mainly on you, but that's only because they don't understand, and you can't use it as a gauge. When one of you looks bad, you all look bad.
In order to look better yourself, and to not be in the position of trying to decide what to say to a coach later, you have to be more pro-active during the game to make it better.

Also, if you really think of it as "one for all and all for one" you are so embarrassed when you see that coach, that you just wave and walk out. Don't even want to explain.

Originally Posted by just another ref

If anything I said or did before, during, or after this game can be considered throwing anyone under anything, feel free to throw me with them.

Nah, you did it to yourself. We don't need to. Just learn your lesson, as we all should do when we err, and don't do it again.

[just another ref]

I will never be afraid to state facts, especially facts that are already known by the person I am speaking to.

Example: I expanded my zone and made a lot of calls.

I will also never be afraid to state facts that are published in black and white.

Example: They were not entitled to 3 free throws in the above situation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

the line is right where you say or imply or strongly hint that you were trying to "rescue" the game from the partners.

I can see where some might feel this way, but I certainly didn't tell him anything he didn't already know.




Even to try to take the blame is just backhanded slamming.

Disagree

"I'm not sure we saw the whole situation." "Those guys are pretty respected, I expect they know what they're doing" "Howard is our rules guy for all the little details. you'll have to ask him." "Sorry, I was talking on the phone" "Oh, I wasn't watching. Have you seen a red cap laying here somewhere?"

I just see all this as varying degrees of bogus. I did say, we don't know for sure what the call was, but the signal I saw was this, and the appropriate penalty was this. This was no little detail. If you wish to lie to a friend who asks a direct question in the name of preserving the integrity of the profession, that's up to you.


And what did you do in pre-game to get on the same page, and to be on the same page?

Spent a considerable time on positioning, coverage areas, and differences between 2 man and 3 man.

I mean, in that game, knowing this new guy hadn't done 3-whistle before, you might have added a lot to his learning by really bending over backward to see that he DID call a few fouls and that they were good calls.

I'd like to know how you do that.

End of the first quarter, if he's still pretty overwhelmed, you say okay, let's lock down in positions and just focus on the action, or give him carte blanche to call all over the floor. "I don't care where the next foul happens, it's your whistle". This is the kind of stuff I've experienced at 3-whistle camps for beginners and it really helps a lot to get over that first big barrier.

If you say this is a camp teaching tactic, I'll take your word for it. But this was not a camp. What happens when somebody gets flipped on his head before he makes the next call?

The crowd is mainly on you, but that's only because they don't understand, and you can't use it as a gauge. When one of you looks bad, you all look bad.

I'll buy this part.


In order to look better yourself, and to not be in the position of trying to decide what to say to a coach later, you have to be more pro-active during the game to make it better.

I'd need something more specific.

Also, if you really think of it as "one for all and all for one" you are so embarrassed when you see that coach, that you just wave and walk out. Don't even want to explain.

I was definitely not embarassed. Furthermore, I don't believe either of my partners was either. I think we all gave our best effort given the situation.

Nah, you did it to yourself. We don't need to. Just learn your lesson, as we all should do when we err, and don't do it again.

Your opinions are noted, and appreciated.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I will never be afraid to state facts, especially facts that are already known by the person I am speaking to.

Example: I expanded my zone and made a lot of calls.

I will also never be afraid to state facts that are published in black and white.

Example: They were not entitled to 3 free throws in the above situation.

I will never be afraid to state facts either.

You threw your partners under the bus, have no remorse about doing so and would do it again in a hearbeat.

And that's a fact, Jack.

And it's also sad......

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I'm not going to be lumped in with clowns who don't know the rules in that situation.

Good. Now you're lumped in with the clowns that would throw their partners under a bus instead. Yup, good choice.

There was the other option. Rich and Kingsman gave us the professional way. You don't criticize your fellow officials publically with non-officials. If you have complaints, feedback, etc., re: your officiating brethren, by all means bring 'em forth. But keep it in-house.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The problem is this: You're not in an association meeting. You're sitting in the stands with a bunch of ignorant chuckleheads who want someone, anyone to validate their opinion that the officials suck. Even if those guys on the floor are right and you tell them, they then think you AND the officials are morons.

I've been in that position. My response? I'd have my phone in my hands looking like I wasn't even watching, sending an email or something. I do not, will not comment on the officiating with anyone other than another official.

I understand the unwillingness either to endorse (what seems to me) an obviously blown call or to announce in the stands that the officials blew it.

But Rich is right: the people in the stands are partisan, and they are asking only for validation. They're not interested in learning the rules.

Furthermore, in many circumstances there might be things going on that I really didn't see from the stands: they might have gotten it right after all, based on what they saw. So even apart from "not throwing them under the bus," I'm shutting up because I might not have all of the info.

Rich's proposed solution is a great one: "I didn't see it," or maybe, "I'm not sure what the call was," which might be more honest. Of all the things you might say here, this is probably the best. IMHO.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I understand the unwillingness either to endorse (what seems to me) an obviously blown call or to announce in the stands that the officials blew it.

But Rich is right: the people in the stands are partisan, and they are asking only for validation. They're not interested in learning the rules.

Furthermore, in many circumstances there might be things going on that I really didn't see from the stands: they might have gotten it right after all, based on what they saw. So even apart from "not throwing them under the bus," I'm shutting up because I might not have all of the info.

Rich's proposed solution is a great one: "I didn't see it," or maybe, "I'm not sure what the call was," which might be more honest. Of all the things you might say here, this is probably the best. IMHO.

Another aside: If the officials are right I won't say anything either, for one simple reason -- silence can't be misquoted, but sure can be interpreted if you are willing to talk only when you think the officials are right.

Your solution is the best one. "I'm not sure I saw the whole thing" or "I'm not sure what they called there -- maybe I missed something" is probably the more honest approach than pretending you saw nothing.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm a little vague about where the line is drawn on what constitutes "throwing someone under the bus."

Years ago, I was watching a game as a spectator when an intentional foul was called on a made basket. Officials awarded 3 free throws, "one for the foul, two for the intentional." This struck several people in the crowd as wrong. Some of the people asked me.

"Was that right?"

"Sorry, but I'm here to enjoy the game, not critique my associates"