Need Your Vote

[Ed Hickland]

Would like to get a vote on this play for an upcoming column.

A’s ball first and ten at A’s 35. A7 fades back and throws a pass to A81 who catches it at A’s 40 and runs to the 50 where he loses possession of the ball. There is a scramble for the ball as it rolls forward. At A’s 47 A89 blocks B52 below the waist while the ball is loose. A81 manages to recover the ball at A’s 45.

Where is the enforcement spot?

a) A's 45
b) A's 47

Trick question?

[Edited by Ed Hickland on Apr 3rd, 2002 at 02:54 PM]

[Middleman]

This is a loose ball foul which occurred behind the basic spot, the previous spot (B's 35). Therefore the enforcement for a foul by the offense is the spot of the foul, A's 47. 1st and 43 from A's 32.

The trick in your question is that the play started in B's territory, and A81 was actually running backward when he fumbled. The ball may have been rolling forward at the time of the foul, but the overall effect was that the loose ball rolled backward to A's 45 before being recovered.

Is that what you intended?

[Schmidt MJ]

I agree with middleman. This is a loose-ball play since all of the action took place behind the LOS. Enforcement spot is the spot of the foul since it was committed by the offense behind the basic spot (the LOS). Step off 15 yards from A's 47.

[Ed Hickland]

That was a trick play but not intentionally. Take a look now.

[donuteater]

Ed,
MJ has it correct. Your answer is b) A's 47 .

We basically have a foul during a loose ball play (the fumble). So the foul is behind the basic spot which is now the end of the run. Enforcement is from the spot of the foul (A's 47). Walk off 15 yards , it will be A's ball 1st and 13 from the A 32 yard line.
Darin

[Middleman]

Originally posted by donuteater
Ed,
MJ has it correct. Your answer is b) A's 47 .

We basically have a foul during a loose ball play (the fumble). So the foul is behind the basic spot which is now the end of the run. Enforcement is from the spot of the foul (A's 47). Walk off 15 yards , it will be A's ball 1st and 13 from the A 32 yard line.
Darin

This is not a foul during a loose ball play. You are correct that it is a foul behind the basic spot.

When Ed changed his play (he moved the previous spot from B's 35 to A's 35) he changed it from a loose ball play to a running play, because the fumble was beyond the neutral zone. After Ed's change, the basic spot became the 50, the spot where the related run ended. The enforcement is still from A's 47, but the basic spot that MJ and I were responding to was B's 35.

I'm wondering if Ed didn't also get his A's and B's mixed up on the spot of the foul and the spot of the recovery when he penned his scenario. The ruling would be different if the illegal block by A89 had occurred on B's 47 and the ball recovered on B's 45 (he said "There is a scramble for the ball as it rolls forward.") That play would have been more challenging. If that were the case, enforcement would be from the 50 (not the spot of the foul) and you end up putting the ball back on A's 35, 1st and 10 all over again.

That's why bean bags are important.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Middleman

This is not a foul during a loose ball play. You are correct that it is a foul behind the basic spot.

When Ed changed his play (he moved the previous spot from B's 35 to A's 35) he changed it from a loose ball play to a running play, because the fumble was beyond the neutral zone. After Ed's change, the basic spot became the 50, the spot where the related run ended. The enforcement is still from A's 47, but the basic spot that MJ and I were responding to was B's 35.

I'm wondering if Ed didn't also get his A's and B's mixed up on the spot of the foul and the spot of the recovery when he penned his scenario. The ruling would be different if the illegal block by A89 had occurred on B's 47 and the ball recovered on B's 45 (he said "There is a scramble for the ball as it rolls forward.") That play would have been more challenging. If that were the case, enforcement would be from the 50 (not the spot of the foul) and you end up putting the ball back on A's 35, 1st and 10 all over again.

That's why bean bags are important.

Middleman bean bags are important and so are conferences because think we would be doing one after this play.

The trick to the question originally is where and how would you enforce the penalty.

Let's leave the play as is even though the balls rolls forward and ends up going backward, we all know footballs bounce kinda funny.

The key to the play is whether you rule the the foul during a loose ball play or a running play.

The correct answer is the ball is loose during a loose ball play while in team possession of A. Middleman is correct, we need to see a bean bag at the 50 because that is the spot where possession is lost. The 50 becomes the previous spot for a loose ball foul.

The trick involves the all-but-one principle because the foul occurs behind the basic spot. And, the basic spot becomes the previous spot on a loose ball play. So the spot of enforcement becomes the spot of the foul A's 47.

As to the ball rolling forward. What I originally intended was to have the ball roll forward to B's 45 and the illegal block occur at B's 47. My thought is that there would be confusion over the enforcement spot between B's 45 and 47.

The correct answer would have been neither spot because the 50 is the basic spot on that play also.

As to loose ball plays and fouls. A loose ball play can occur anywhere at any time. The important thing is when the ball comes loose, put a bean bag on the spot.

Thanks to everyone for correcting me on this one and making a much more interesting play.

Question? If this was incorrectly enforced, how many coaches would know to question it?

[Middleman]

Originally posted by Ed Hickland

Let's leave the play as is even though the balls rolls forward and ends up going backward, we all know footballs bounce kinda funny.

The key to the play is whether you rule the the foul during a loose ball play or a running play.

The correct answer is the ball is loose during a loose ball play while in team possession of A. Middleman is correct, we need to see a bean bag at the 50 because that is the spot where possession is lost. The 50 becomes the previous spot for a loose ball foul.

The trick involves the all-but-one principle because the foul occurs behind the basic spot. And, the basic spot becomes the previous spot on a loose ball play. So the spot of enforcement becomes the spot of the foul A's 47.

Question? If this was incorrectly enforced, how many coaches would know to question it?

Ed, I've got to stick to my guns regarding the semantics of this play. It is not a loose ball play. Repeat after me - "It is not a loose ball play. It is a running play with the ball being loose following loss of player possession."

Why is the distinction so important? If you call this a loose ball play, the basic spot is the previous spot and therefore the foul by the offense occured beyond the basic spot. If this were a loose ball play you would take the ball back to A's 35 and enforce from there. That would be wrong.

It is not true that "The 50 becomes the previous spot for a loose ball foul." The 50 becomes the basic spot, not the previous spot. The previous spot is the spot where the ball was last put in play and cannot change during a down.

If you are going to be writing an article for publication, it is absolutely essential that you get the terminology correct. The distinction in this case is so important that the Federation Rules define loose ball play and running play not once but twice; first in rule 2-31 and again in rule 10-3. Rule 10 is difficult enough to master with its procedures, spots, and special enforcements. Mixing up the terms is confusing and counterproductive. Definitions and terminology are critical to proper game management and administration.

In answer to your question, I don't know how many of our coaches would know the difference between enforcing the foul from the 50 or the 47, but I can almost guarantee that every one of them would squawk if we went back to the 35!

[Schmidt MJ]

Middleman is so correct when he says the most important thing is to understand the terminology. Rule 10 is probably the most confusing rule in the book simply because of the meanings of specific words. You must first learn the definitions of the words as they apply to the rulebook, not as the ordinary fans define them. If we don't all have the same definitions of the same words we use to describe the same situations then we're not able to apply them in a consistent manner throughout the game or on this discussion board.

[STEVED21]

You two are absolutely correct. We always have problems with these definitions. Just because a ball is "loose" it does not make it a loose ball play. Also, as seen in this example, you can have 2 plays during one down. The "loose ball play" ended when A81 caught the pass and a "running play" started. Therefore the basic spot would be the end of that run. When A81 recovered the ball it would have been a new "running play" had he be able to advance. Of course, the enforcement spot would not have changed. As was said before, this shows the importance of bean bags to mark spots.

[Rick KY]

10-4-3 says the basic spot is the end of the run, meaning where the fumble came loose. Since the foul was by A and behind the basic spot, enforce from the spot of the foul, under all-but-1 principle (10-6).

[xu7614xu]

Answer is the 45 yard line and I don't think it is a trick question based on the answer choices. The trick part of it is whether or not there is a foul committed by the block below the waist.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by xu7614xu
Answer is the 45 yard line and I don't think it is a trick question based on the answer choices. The trick part of it is whether or not there is a foul committed by the block below the waist.

I have to disagree. The answer is not the 45. The reason we throw a bean bag in this play is to establish a basic spot if there is a foul. Since the foul occurs behind the basic spot, the penalty is marked off from the spot of the foul, the 47, not where the ball was recovered.