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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 02:48am
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Question Call or No-call?

Not sure if anybody's done this one yet....call or no-call?

SMU awaits ruling on Milito suspension - Nova Scotia News - TheChronicleHerald.ca

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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 03:00am
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It looked to me like there was a foul before the elbow. Or at the very least a tie up with the ball. Not sure how you do not have a call on something. That being said I am not completely sure this was intentional other than the player trying to free themselves from the contact. That being said, something should be called hear if nothing else but a player control foul if you there was nothing called before that. Now I am not sure that I would necessarily call an intentional, but it is certainly OK if that is what you want to call. But to call nothing is just bad.

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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 03:12am
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Yea, I think there's gotta be a foul, just a normal PC foul. The article called it a "wild" pivot, which I think it was, and not within the player's allowed space. I suppose it could be an intentional as "excessive" contact...

There might have been a Fed elbow violation just before that, she clearly pulled both elbows up apparently to clear space.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 03:22am
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Looked flagrant to me. Violent, savage, the whole bit.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 05:48am
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If not a personal, flagrant or intentional foul, I would have called a walk.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 07:24am
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What is that official doing standing over the injured player? That's looking for trouble no matter what he called.

There was a lot of contact before white swung her elbow. I doubt I'd have a flagrant here, and the contact ended up being "excessive" only because black had her face down by white's elbow. Clean up the contact on rebounders and they won't be swinging elbows like that.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 08:18am
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I have a flagrant.

Can somebody give the proper mechanics and penaties for a live ball flagrant such as this? I am not 100% sure.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 09:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopguy View Post
I have a flagrant.

Can somebody give the proper mechanics and penaties for a live ball flagrant such as this? I am not 100% sure.
Definitely flagrant....In slow motion, it shows her lower, raise and deliver a violent elbow....maybe the ref didn't see it as clear (no slo-mo for him), but still flagrant in my book.....
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 09:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopguy View Post
I have a flagrant.

Can somebody give the proper mechanics and penaties for a live ball flagrant such as this? I am not 100% sure.
There is no signal for flagrant, just do your normal foul signal and when you report to the table indicate to them that the foul was flagrant and the player is disqualified.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 09:27am
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Definitely flagrant....In slow motion, it shows her lower, raise and deliver a violent elbow....maybe the ref didn't see it as clear (no slo-mo for him), but still flagrant in my book.....
Not sure if I agree that this is flagrant without being there. It is hard to tell if the girl is tied up (either her being held or the ball being held), so part of the violent contact could be due just to the momentum of freeing herself from that. Just because the outcome/impact is violent doesn't mean the act necessarily is.

Follow-on question to all, what do you do if you have a whistle for a hold on black and just as you have your whistle, then white comes out with this elbow? Are you calling a technical or flagrant?

Last edited by slow whistle; Fri Jan 29, 2010 at 09:39am.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 09:34am
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She definitely traveled before the elbow. But she was fouled on the reach in also so I'd try to get that one first. If you call the reach on black then you can have a dead ball technical or flagrant. Didn't look ejection worthy to me in real time.

If the travel and foul on black are missed, you would have to go PC on this.

Last edited by bbcof83; Fri Jan 29, 2010 at 09:37am.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 09:44am
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Originally Posted by bbcof83 View Post
She definitely traveled before the elbow. But she was fouled on the reach in also so I'd try to get that one first. If you call the reach on black then you can have a dead ball technical or flagrant. Didn't look ejection worthy to me in real time.

If the travel and foul on black are missed, you would have to go PC on this.
Did you, as an official, actually write "reach in" and "reach"?
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 09:45am
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I don't think it's a flagrant. What pops out to me is why didn't trail stay with injured player? he just abandoned her as if nothing happened. I may not have stopped play, yet I'd monitor the situation. If the downed player was acting, she did a darn good job. Sure looked very serious on clip. Wondering how long they would have let play continue with an apparent comotose player.

I've seen the opposite of this in a boys sectional final, where A has a break away with numbers and B goes down in backcourt. Trail immediately blows whistle and it was a twisted ankle that didn't require a sub.
In a sectional final? UGH! Was it my buddy who thinks I call too many fouls for one team?
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 09:47am
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I don't think it's a flagrant. What pops out to me is why didn't trail stay with injured player? he just abandoned her as if nothing happened. I may not have stopped play, yet I'd stay back and monitor the situation. If the downed player was acting, she did a darn good job. Sure looked very serious on clip. Wondering how long they would have let play continue with an apparent seriously injured player.

C stayed home and had a great look at it, still nothing. I'm surprised with four eyeballs both trail and c passed.

I've seen the opposite of this in a boys sectional final, where A has a break away with numbers and B goes down in backcourt. Trail immediately blows whistle and it was a twisted ankle that didn't require a sub.

I'm assuming this was a college game? Additionally, I'm getting out of dodge and staying away from coach. Common sense, I think I learned that my first year officiating.

Last edited by fullor30; Fri Jan 29, 2010 at 09:51am.
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Old Fri Jan 29, 2010, 09:56am
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Originally Posted by slow whistle View Post
Follow-on question to all, what do you do if you have a whistle for a hold on black and just as you have your whistle, then white comes out with this elbow? Are you calling a technical or flagrant?
You do know that you can have a flagrant technical foul, right?

If the elbow came after the foul call on the black player, then your choices are:
1) intentional technical foul
2) flagrant technical foul.

You can't call a personal foul or a straight technical foul because dead-ball contact was involved.

Note that's using NFHS rules. The NCAA rules are different, I think.
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