Team Bench Technical for Unsporting Act

[SAJ]

If Mom did say it and you knew she did, she doesn't have to stay in gym. That is something you can control.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Thats not what he said Go back and re read it. He said if I knew Mom siad it.

He didnt' ask, "Do you know whether Mom said it?" If he had, I would agree with you -- that question had already been answered.

Instead, he was responding to your question -- and gave the same (effective) answer as JurassicRef, and the same answer I would have given. "IF you knew Mom said it..." is the same as "If Mom said it..."

I'm astounded at the lack of reading comprehension here.

Ditto.

[Ignats75]

We've got too many people posting now and I'm responding to one post when someone else posts. I was responding to Smitty's post. he's the one that implied I KNEW the Mom said it. That's what I reacted to. Sorry for that confusion.

I was asking about whether I should've passed on assessing the T on the AssCoach because my back was turned when the comment came. Sort of like putting time on the clock. I heard the comment. Could've sworn the AssCoach said it but because my back was turned I didn't have definite knowledge. Heck. I wasn't even aware there was a parent right behind the AssCoach. I didn't know that fact until a half hour after the game was over. So the parent involvement is just a red herring.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Did you READ the whole story or did you just see an opportunity to jump on me because your panties are twisted? The HC ckaimed a fan said it after the game. At the time, I thought the AssCoach said it. Is that clear enough for you?

I did read what you said. Here it is:

Originally Posted by Ignats75

if Mom did say it (and I'm not sure I buy that)....Should I have passed?

I responded to that. I'm not the one whose panties are in a wad. I am just responding to what you wrote. In the other thread as well. I am sorry if I hurt your feelings.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

We've got too many people posting now and I'm responding to one post when someone else posts. I was responding to Smitty's post. he's the one that implied I KNEW the Mom said it. That's what I reacted to. Sorry for that confusion.

I was asking about whether I should've passed on assessing the T on the AssCoach because my back was turned when the comment came. Sort of like putting time on the clock. I heard the comment. Could've sworn the AssCoach said it but because my back was turned I didn't have definite knowledge. Heck. I wasn't even aware there was a parent right behind the AssCoach. I didn't know that fact until a half hour after the game was over. So the parent involvement is just a red herring.

I'll rephrase and stand by my most recent comment. I would have passed, not knowing for sure who said it; and I think you should have passed as well since you weren't sure who said it.

I still wouldn't lose much sleep over it; just learn from it. If the AC was "verbally berating" your partner, a warning could have easily been skipped (depending on how you define "berates") and a T issued immediately. The warning to the HC is a courtesy here.

1. Hopefully Mom will learn to keep her trap shut.
2. Hopefully AC will learn to keep her trap shut.
3. Hopefully HC will learn to control his bench better.
4. Hopefully you've learned from this as well.

By the way, I'd say the fact that you had any doubt after the game is evidence enough that you probably should have passed.

[JPaco54]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you're sure that the "BS" came from the bench and who it came from, call the "T" and charge a direct "T" to whoever said it along with an indirect "T" to the head coach. If you're sure that it came from the bench but you're not sure who said it, charge the head coach with a direct "T". The bench is his responsibility.

If you're not 100% sure that it came from the bench, let it go. If you call it, you're guessing.

Jmo....

This is one of my points in my OP, you can not charge the Bench with an Unsporting Tech. You have to charge a player, bench personnel or the HC. You just can not call out a "Team Bench Technical Foul for Unsporting ACT." This is then recorded as a Team foul in the score book which is not correct. You have to whack SOMEBODY for unsporting. You can not give a T to the mom in the stands behind the bench or any other fan and record it as a Team Tech foul. Game management is responsible for the fans, and if game management is not present then it is the HC's responsibility and you whack him with the Direct T for any actions with the fans cheerleaders or general bench personnel. If you dont know who said it you can not just whack them with a Bench Tech.

[JPaco54]

In a game I observed someone from the bench area called out verbage in an unsporting way to an official who had his back to their bench. He turned and did not know who said it so he just whacked them with a T - He stated,"That is a Team Technical foul for unsporting conduct on the bench." He told the score keeper to mark in in the book as a team foul. No foul on the HC.

This is incorrect procedure.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JPaco54

This is one of my points in my OP, you can not charge the Bench with an Unsporting Tech. You have to charge a player, bench personnel or the HC. You just can not call out a "Team Bench Technical Foul for Unsporting ACT." This is then recorded as a Team foul in the score book which is not correct. You have to whack SOMEBODY for unsporting. You can not give a T to the mom in the stands behind the bench or any other fan and record it as a Team Tech foul.

10.4.4B is an example of multiple infractions charged to the Team, with an indirect to the coach. Although the example is not for unsporting behavior, I'd use the same process.

2-8-1, 2.8.1 and 10-1-8 all seem to imply that you can charge a Team T for unsporting behavior (including, in rare cases, by the fans).

I'm reasonably certain that NCAA has an AR where someone on the bench mouths off, and the procedure is to charge a "bench T" without knowing exactly to whom to give the foul. I don't know if the FED has such a play. (Frankly, I think if you said that you had to give it directly to the Coach, someone would volunteer that s/he made the remark).

[Loudwhistle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'll rephrase and stand by my most recent comment. I would have passed, not knowing for sure who said it; and I think you should have passed as well since you weren't sure who said it.

I still wouldn't lose much sleep over it; just learn from it. If the AC was "verbally berating" your partner, a warning could have easily been skipped (depending on how you define "berates") and a T issued immediately. The warning to the HC is a courtesy here.

1. Hopefully Mom will learn to keep her trap shut.
2. Hopefully AC will learn to keep her trap shut.
3. Hopefully HC will learn to control his bench better.
4. Hopefully you've learned from this as well.

By the way, I'd say the fact that you had any doubt after the game is evidence enough that you probably should have passed.

Snaqwells last sentence is a pearl of wisdom. In the T's I've given, the ones that I would give again if I was in the exact situation later are the right T's to give. The ones that I would "take back" are ones I probably shouldn't have given.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JPaco54

This is one of my points in my OP, you can not charge the Bench with an Unsporting Tech. You have to charge a player, bench personnel or the HC. You just can not call out a "Team Bench Technical Foul for Unsporting ACT." This is then recorded as a Team foul in the score book which is not correct. You have to whack SOMEBODY for unsporting. You can not give a T to the mom in the stands behind the bench or any other fan and record it as a Team Tech foul. Game management is responsible for the fans, and if game management is not present then it is the HC's responsibility and you whack him with the Direct T for any actions with the fans cheerleaders or general bench personnel. If you dont know who said it you can not just whack them with a Bench Tech.

Did you even bother to open up your books and look at those rules and case book plays cited?

For instance, in the COMMENT in case book play 2.8.1 it says -"Another problem arises when team supporters throw debris, paper, coins, ice or other items on the floor. If the official has positive knowledge as to which supporter(s) threw the items, the officials should instruct game management to have the supporter(s) removed from the site. If the official does not have positive knowledge, the official should instruct game management to make a public address announcement that the next time debris is thriown on the floor, it will result in a TECHNICAL FOUL CHARGED TO THAT SUPPORTER(S) TEAM."

Your point in your OP is wrong; it is contradicted definitively by the rules.

[Loudwhistle]

Originally Posted by jpaco54

this is one of my points in my op, you can not charge the bench with an unsporting tech. You have to charge a player, bench personnel or the hc. You just can not call out a "team bench technical foul for unsporting act." this is then recorded as a team foul in the score book which is not correct. You have to whack somebody for unsporting. You can not give a t to the mom in the stands behind the bench or any other fan and record it as a team tech foul. Game management is responsible for the fans, and if game management is not present then it is the hc's responsibility and you whack him with the direct t for any actions with the fans cheerleaders or general bench personnel. If you dont know who said it you can not just whack them with a bench tech.

read the case plays presented, read the case plays presented!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JPaco54

You can not give a T to the mom in the stands behind the bench or any other fan and record it as a Team Tech foul.

Try reading this....

See Situation #9 in the 2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations. Note the sentence that says "The referee is also within his/her authority to assess a team technical foul for unsporting behavior on the spectator."

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...s-archive.html

Changed your mind yet?

[JPaco54]

I appreciate all the input and Yes I did read the rules and case book at lunch but I guess I got hung up on Exact wording for T'ing up the Bench for Unsporting. You are correct that there is not exact wording in the CasePlay for unsporting behavior and I should use descretioin and past interps to interpret the proper call. I think I got it now and you all have been very helpful...I do make it a habit to abide by the guidance an insight you all provide and to make sure I read the manuals as suggested. That is the best way for me to comprehend, is reading the actual rules. Appreciate you all! Enjoy your games! I think we can move on to something else.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

AssCoach... AssCoach... AssCoach...

'Nough said.

[Texas Aggie]

You have to whack SOMEBODY for unsporting. You can not give a T to the mom in the stands behind the bench or any other fan and record it as a Team Tech foul. Game management is responsible for the fans, and if game management is not present then it is the HC's responsibility and you whack him with the Direct T for any actions with the fans cheerleaders or general bench personnel.

Much of this statement is totally incorrect:

1. A TEAM bench may be penalized for unsporting behavior. See 10-4-1. Also, see 10.1 for a team technical, disputing your statement.
2. ALL team fouls are counted to reach the bonus. See 4-19-13.
3. If the fans are out of control, stop the game and get things under control -- clearing the gym if you have to. If its a spontaneous act (like throwing Tennis balls in the Florida game a few years ago), that is a T that would be applied INDIRECTLY (if at all) to the head coach, as you can not call a DIRECT T on the coach for the actions of others. (Hence the term, direct.)

Everything in your original post was covered in the rules clearly (except possibly the part about the coach's indirect T for crowd behavior) without needing to reference the casebook. I'm not sure why you are making statements that are unfounded.