Team Bench Technical for Unsporting Act

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JPaco54

The last few days on this forum we have had a few situations where a Bench Technical was called for Unsporting behavior without a player or coach being charged directly. I am having some trouble with this and need some guidance/clarification.

First, I cannot find anywhere in the rule book/case book where it states a Team Bench Technical can be called for an unsporting act. Can someone point me in the right direction please.

Casebook play 10.4.4SitB

Note that in this particular case, the head coach also gets an indirect "T" assessed along with the team "T".

[JPaco54]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Casebook play 10.4.4SitB

Note that in this particular case, the head coach also gets an indirect "T" assessed along with the team "T".

Thanks but that does not support an unsporting act from the fans nor an unsporting act from the bench. I agree, you call a Tech on the HC but you can not call a Bench Technical for an unsporting act. Rule 10-4 under ruling, states it much be charged to an individual if it was not the HC. I see officials do this and I believe it is wrong. An earlier, post was about a Tech issued on the visitors cheerleaders. You can not Tech the cheerleaders.

You can talk to Game Management and have them address the situation. In these Wreck or church league games, there are rules that state the HC is responsible for his fans and if they do not settle down the HC is assessed a T and you can request/demand that the fan(s) leave if they are that disruptive. BUT under NFHS there is no criteria that I can find that allows you to T up a fan, cheerleaders or the general team for an unsporting act. Am I missing something simple here?

[Adam]

Rule reference: 2-8-1 (note)

And 10.4.4B provides precedent for assessing a Team tech when you know an unsporting foul has been committed (you must know it's from the bench, IMO) but not who did it.

[Ignats75]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rule reference: 2-8-1 (note)

And 10.4.4B provides precedent for assessing a Team tech when you know an unsporting foul has been committed (you must know it's from the bench, IMO) but not who did it.

Here's a question off of your statement Snaq:

V AssCoach during JV game is sitting on the bench. Verbally berates my partner for a "bad call". I happen to be by JV HC and tell him to get control of his bench. As I turn away I hear a response from the same part of the bench including a muttered "BS". I issued a direct T on the V AssCoach as bench personnel. She claims she didn't say it. I'm not sure but my response was, "you shouldn't have said anything." meaning, your aren't the HC. STFU.

The bench T stood. In your opinion, should I have let the profanity go because I didn't have definite knowledge the AssCoach said it?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Here's a question off of your statement Snaq:

V AssCoach during JV game is sitting on the bench. Verbally berates my partner for a "bad call". I happen to be by JV HC and tell him to get control of his bench. As I turn away I hear a response from the same part of the bench including a muttered "BS". I issued a direct T on the V AssCoach as bench personnel. She claims she didn't say it. I'm not sure but my response was, "you shouldn't have said anything." meaning, your aren't the HC. STFU.

The bench T stood. In your opinion, should I have let the profanity go because I didn't have definite knowledge the AssCoach said it?

1. Are you sure it was her?
2. If not, are you sure it was from the bench?

Did she claim someone else said it, or did she claim she said something else?

Not that it really matters a great deal other than for reflection later. If you're sure she said it, it's good enough for me. If you're sure it came from the bench, I have no problem with it either, since the AC made her own bed, so to speak.

[Ignats75]

It sounded like her. It came from her end of the bench. The HC told me after the game that the comment came from the Mom sitting in the first row right behind the AssCoach. And by the way. It was the whole b---$#it. Not just "BS". It was profanity.

I've thought about it over and over. I'm on the fence because one part of me says, AssCoaches should shut up and if she had, the second act wouldn't have happened anyway. part of me says, if Mom did say it (and I'm not sure I buy that)....Should I have passed?

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

It sounded like her. It came from her end of the bench. The HC told me after the game that the comment came from the Mom sitting in the first row right behind the AssCoach. And by the way. It was the whole b---$#it. Not just "BS". It was profanity.

I've thought about it over and over. I'm on the fence because one part of me says, AssCoaches should shut up and if she had, the second act wouldn't have happened anyway. part of me says, if Mom did say it (and I'm not sure I buy that)....Should I have passed?

If a fan said it, and you knew the fan said it, you should certainly not punish the assistant coach. If you chose not to punish her for the first act, how can you punish her for something she didn't do after that?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

It sounded like her. It came from her end of the bench. The HC told me after the game that the comment came from the Mom sitting in the first row right behind the AssCoach. And by the way. It was the whole b---$#it. Not just "BS". It was profanity.

I've thought about it over and over. I'm on the fence because one part of me says, AssCoaches should shut up and if she had, the second act wouldn't have happened anyway. part of me says, if Mom did say it (and I'm not sure I buy that)....Should I have passed?

If you're not sure, you probably should have passed.

That said, if the AC had kept her mouth shut all along, you would have been more likely to give her the benefit of the doubt. If it was Mom, I'll bet she'll watch it next time.

IOW, you may or may not have kicked it, but I personally wouldn't lose any sleep over it since the lessons are there for everyone to learn. Whether they learn it is up to them.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

V AssCoach during JV game is sitting on the bench. Verbally berates my partner for a "bad call". I happen to be by JV HC and tell him to get control of his bench. As I turn away I hear a response from the same part of the bench including a muttered "BS". I issued a direct T on the V AssCoach as bench personnel. She claims she didn't say it. I'm not sure but my response was, "you shouldn't have said anything." meaning, your aren't the HC. STFU.

The bench T stood. In your opinion, should I have let the profanity go because I didn't have definite knowledge the AssCoach said it?

If you're sure that the "BS" came from the bench and who it came from, call the "T" and charge a direct "T" to whoever said it along with an indirect "T" to the head coach. If you're sure that it came from the bench but you're not sure who said it, charge the head coach with a direct "T". The bench is his responsibility.

If you're not 100% sure that it came from the bench, let it go. If you call it, you're guessing.

Jmo....

[SAJ]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you're sure that the "BS" came from the bench and who it came from, call the "T" and charge a direct "T" to whoever said it along with an indirect "T" to the head coach. If you're sure that it came from the bench but you're not sure who said it, charge the head coach with a direct "T". The bench is his responsibility.

If you're not 100% sure that it came from the bench, let it go. If you call it, you're guessing.

Jmo....

+1

maybe Mom will keep quiet next time...sounds like she owes that team an apology for her actions.

[SAJ]

If Mom did say it and you knew she did, she doesn't have to stay in gym. That is something you can control.

[JPaco54]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you're sure that the "BS" came from the bench and who it came from, call the "T" and charge a direct "T" to whoever said it along with an indirect "T" to the head coach. If you're sure that it came from the bench but you're not sure who said it, charge the head coach with a direct "T". The bench is his responsibility.

If you're not 100% sure that it came from the bench, let it go. If you call it, you're guessing.

Jmo....

This is one of my points in my OP, you can not charge the Bench with an Unsporting Tech. You have to charge a player, bench personnel or the HC. You just can not call out a "Team Bench Technical Foul for Unsporting ACT." This is then recorded as a Team foul in the score book which is not correct. You have to whack SOMEBODY for unsporting. You can not give a T to the mom in the stands behind the bench or any other fan and record it as a Team Tech foul. Game management is responsible for the fans, and if game management is not present then it is the HC's responsibility and you whack him with the Direct T for any actions with the fans cheerleaders or general bench personnel. If you dont know who said it you can not just whack them with a Bench Tech.

[JPaco54]

In a game I observed someone from the bench area called out verbage in an unsporting way to an official who had his back to their bench. He turned and did not know who said it so he just whacked them with a T - He stated,"That is a Team Technical foul for unsporting conduct on the bench." He told the score keeper to mark in in the book as a team foul. No foul on the HC.

This is incorrect procedure.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JPaco54

This is one of my points in my OP, you can not charge the Bench with an Unsporting Tech. You have to charge a player, bench personnel or the HC. You just can not call out a "Team Bench Technical Foul for Unsporting ACT." This is then recorded as a Team foul in the score book which is not correct. You have to whack SOMEBODY for unsporting. You can not give a T to the mom in the stands behind the bench or any other fan and record it as a Team Tech foul.

10.4.4B is an example of multiple infractions charged to the Team, with an indirect to the coach. Although the example is not for unsporting behavior, I'd use the same process.

2-8-1, 2.8.1 and 10-1-8 all seem to imply that you can charge a Team T for unsporting behavior (including, in rare cases, by the fans).

I'm reasonably certain that NCAA has an AR where someone on the bench mouths off, and the procedure is to charge a "bench T" without knowing exactly to whom to give the foul. I don't know if the FED has such a play. (Frankly, I think if you said that you had to give it directly to the Coach, someone would volunteer that s/he made the remark).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JPaco54

This is one of my points in my OP, you can not charge the Bench with an Unsporting Tech. You have to charge a player, bench personnel or the HC. You just can not call out a "Team Bench Technical Foul for Unsporting ACT." This is then recorded as a Team foul in the score book which is not correct. You have to whack SOMEBODY for unsporting. You can not give a T to the mom in the stands behind the bench or any other fan and record it as a Team Tech foul. Game management is responsible for the fans, and if game management is not present then it is the HC's responsibility and you whack him with the Direct T for any actions with the fans cheerleaders or general bench personnel. If you dont know who said it you can not just whack them with a Bench Tech.

Did you even bother to open up your books and look at those rules and case book plays cited?

For instance, in the COMMENT in case book play 2.8.1 it says -"Another problem arises when team supporters throw debris, paper, coins, ice or other items on the floor. If the official has positive knowledge as to which supporter(s) threw the items, the officials should instruct game management to have the supporter(s) removed from the site. If the official does not have positive knowledge, the official should instruct game management to make a public address announcement that the next time debris is thriown on the floor, it will result in a TECHNICAL FOUL CHARGED TO THAT SUPPORTER(S) TEAM."

Your point in your OP is wrong; it is contradicted definitively by the rules.