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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 02:42pm
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Team Bench Technical for Unsporting Act

The last few days on this forum we have had a few situations where a Bench Technical was called for Unsporting behavior without a player or coach being charged directly. I am having some trouble with this and need some guidance/clarification.

First, I cannot find anywhere in the rule book/case book where it states a Team Bench Technical can be called for an unsporting act. For Administrative issues yes but not for unsporting. Example: Earlier this week there was a post on the V cheerleading squad. Another I witnessed in a GHS game. T Official called a simple hand check foul on V1. As he turned his back after reporting the foul, someone from V called out unsporting verbage to the official. The official turned toward the V bench, but could not tell who actually said it, it was a player who was actually in the game standing near her bench. So, he called an unsporting Tech on the bench. Told the scorer to count it as a team foul. I did not know you could do this and have been looking for an explanation in the rules. I must have my blinders on this week. Can someone point me in the right direction please.
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Old Wed Jan 27, 2010, 02:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaco54 View Post
The last few days on this forum we have had a few situations where a Bench Technical was called for Unsporting behavior without a player or coach being charged directly. I am having some trouble with this and need some guidance/clarification.

First, I cannot find anywhere in the rule book/case book where it states a Team Bench Technical can be called for an unsporting act. Can someone point me in the right direction please.
Casebook play 10.4.4SitB

Note that in this particular case, the head coach also gets an indirect "T" assessed along with the team "T".
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 09:31am
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You can not Tech the Fans nor the Bench for an Unsporting Act

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
Casebook play 10.4.4SitB

Note that in this particular case, the head coach also gets an indirect "T" assessed along with the team "T".
Thanks but that does not support an unsporting act from the fans nor an unsporting act from the bench. I agree, you call a Tech on the HC but you can not call a Bench Technical for an unsporting act. Rule 10-4 under ruling, states it much be charged to an individual if it was not the HC. I see officials do this and I believe it is wrong. An earlier, post was about a Tech issued on the visitors cheerleaders. You can not Tech the cheerleaders.

You can talk to Game Management and have them address the situation. In these Wreck or church league games, there are rules that state the HC is responsible for his fans and if they do not settle down the HC is assessed a T and you can request/demand that the fan(s) leave if they are that disruptive. BUT under NFHS there is no criteria that I can find that allows you to T up a fan, cheerleaders or the general team for an unsporting act. Am I missing something simple here?
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 09:50am
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Rule reference: 2-8-1 (note)

And 10.4.4B provides precedent for assessing a Team tech when you know an unsporting foul has been committed (you must know it's from the bench, IMO) but not who did it.
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Last edited by Adam; Thu Jan 28, 2010 at 09:53am.
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 10:27am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Rule reference: 2-8-1 (note)

And 10.4.4B provides precedent for assessing a Team tech when you know an unsporting foul has been committed (you must know it's from the bench, IMO) but not who did it.
Here's a question off of your statement Snaq:

V AssCoach during JV game is sitting on the bench. Verbally berates my partner for a "bad call". I happen to be by JV HC and tell him to get control of his bench. As I turn away I hear a response from the same part of the bench including a muttered "BS". I issued a direct T on the V AssCoach as bench personnel. She claims she didn't say it. I'm not sure but my response was, "you shouldn't have said anything." meaning, your aren't the HC. STFU.

The bench T stood. In your opinion, should I have let the profanity go because I didn't have definite knowledge the AssCoach said it?
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 10:33am
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Originally Posted by Ignats75 View Post
Here's a question off of your statement Snaq:

V AssCoach during JV game is sitting on the bench. Verbally berates my partner for a "bad call". I happen to be by JV HC and tell him to get control of his bench. As I turn away I hear a response from the same part of the bench including a muttered "BS". I issued a direct T on the V AssCoach as bench personnel. She claims she didn't say it. I'm not sure but my response was, "you shouldn't have said anything." meaning, your aren't the HC. STFU.

The bench T stood. In your opinion, should I have let the profanity go because I didn't have definite knowledge the AssCoach said it?
1. Are you sure it was her?
2. If not, are you sure it was from the bench?

Did she claim someone else said it, or did she claim she said something else?

Not that it really matters a great deal other than for reflection later. If you're sure she said it, it's good enough for me. If you're sure it came from the bench, I have no problem with it either, since the AC made her own bed, so to speak.
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 11:21am
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It sounded like her. It came from her end of the bench. The HC told me after the game that the comment came from the Mom sitting in the first row right behind the AssCoach. And by the way. It was the whole b---$#it. Not just "BS". It was profanity.

I've thought about it over and over. I'm on the fence because one part of me says, AssCoaches should shut up and if she had, the second act wouldn't have happened anyway. part of me says, if Mom did say it (and I'm not sure I buy that)....Should I have passed?
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Last edited by Ignats75; Thu Jan 28, 2010 at 11:24am.
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 11:36am
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Originally Posted by Ignats75 View Post
It sounded like her. It came from her end of the bench. The HC told me after the game that the comment came from the Mom sitting in the first row right behind the AssCoach. And by the way. It was the whole b---$#it. Not just "BS". It was profanity.

I've thought about it over and over. I'm on the fence because one part of me says, AssCoaches should shut up and if she had, the second act wouldn't have happened anyway. part of me says, if Mom did say it (and I'm not sure I buy that)....Should I have passed?
If a fan said it, and you knew the fan said it, you should certainly not punish the assistant coach. If you chose not to punish her for the first act, how can you punish her for something she didn't do after that?
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 11:40am
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Originally Posted by JPaco54 View Post
Thanks but that does not support an unsporting act from the fans nor an unsporting act from the bench. I agree, you call a Tech on the HC but you can not call a Bench Technical for an unsporting act.

BUT under NFHS there is no criteria that I can find that allows you to T up a fan, cheerleaders or the general team for an unsporting act. Am I missing something simple here?
Huh? In casebook play 10.4.4SitB, the bench was penalized with a team technical foul.

From the 2003-04 POE's...
POE1-Sporting Behavior-Suggestions for improved behavior:--"Officials should be prepared to assess a technical foul for a team member/team demonstrating these unsporting acts. The specific inappropriate actions of a few team members may be individually penalized or the entire team may be assessed one technical foul."
Note that rule 4-34-4 states that bench personnel are team members.


You're also missing rule 2-8-1 and case book play 2.8.1. That covers fans.

And note that in the COMMENT of case book play 2.8.1, it states that the technical foul is a team technical foul.

Been in there forever, JPaco.
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 11:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75 View Post
It sounded like her. It came from her end of the bench. The HC told me after the game that the comment came from the Mom sitting in the first row right behind the AssCoach. And by the way. It was the whole b---$#it. Not just "BS". It was profanity.

I've thought about it over and over. I'm on the fence because one part of me says, AssCoaches should shut up and if she had, the second act wouldn't have happened anyway. part of me says, if Mom did say it (and I'm not sure I buy that)....Should I have passed?
If you're not sure, you probably should have passed.

That said, if the AC had kept her mouth shut all along, you would have been more likely to give her the benefit of the doubt. If it was Mom, I'll bet she'll watch it next time.

IOW, you may or may not have kicked it, but I personally wouldn't lose any sleep over it since the lessons are there for everyone to learn. Whether they learn it is up to them.
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 12:03pm
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If a fan said it, and you knew the fan said it, you should certainly not punish the assistant coach. If you chose not to punish her for the first act, how can you punish her for something she didn't do after that?
Did you READ the whole story or did you just see an opportunity to jump on me because your panties are twisted? The HC ckaimed a fan said it after the game. At the time, I thought the AssCoach said it. Is that clear enough for you?
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 12:12pm
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Originally Posted by Ignats75 View Post
Did you READ the whole story or did you just see an opportunity to jump on me because your panties are twisted? The HC ckaimed a fan said it after the game. At the time, I thought the AssCoach said it. Is that clear enough for you?

I've read the whole story and I've just untwisted my panties. I have the same response Smitty had.

You did ask "if Mom did say it (and I'm not sure I buy that)....Should I have passed? "

If you don't want an answer, don't ask the question. If you don't want an answer from a particular person, just ignore it.
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 12:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75 View Post

V AssCoach during JV game is sitting on the bench. Verbally berates my partner for a "bad call". I happen to be by JV HC and tell him to get control of his bench. As I turn away I hear a response from the same part of the bench including a muttered "BS". I issued a direct T on the V AssCoach as bench personnel. She claims she didn't say it. I'm not sure but my response was, "you shouldn't have said anything." meaning, your aren't the HC. STFU.

The bench T stood. In your opinion, should I have let the profanity go because I didn't have definite knowledge the AssCoach said it?
If you're sure that the "BS" came from the bench and who it came from, call the "T" and charge a direct "T" to whoever said it along with an indirect "T" to the head coach. If you're sure that it came from the bench but you're not sure who said it, charge the head coach with a direct "T". The bench is his responsibility.

If you're not 100% sure that it came from the bench, let it go. If you call it, you're guessing.

Jmo....
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 12:37pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I've read the whole story and I've just untwisted my panties. I have the same response Smitty had.

You did ask "if Mom did say it (and I'm not sure I buy that)....Should I have passed? "

If you don't want an answer, don't ask the question. If you don't want an answer from a particular person, just ignore it.
Thats not what he said Go back and re read it. He said if I knew Mom siad it. I didn't. at the time, I thought the AssCoach had said it.

Here's my quote:

Quote:
It sounded like her. It came from her end of the bench. The HC told me after the game that the comment came from the Mom
it was only after the game that the coach told me that. At the time, I was convinced it waws the AssCoach as a response to my warning to the HC.

I'm astounded at the lack of reading comprehension here.
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Old Thu Jan 28, 2010, 12:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
If you're sure that the "BS" came from the bench and who it came from, call the "T" and charge a direct "T" to whoever said it along with an indirect "T" to the head coach. If you're sure that it came from the bench but you're not sure who said it, charge the head coach with a direct "T". The bench is his responsibility.

If you're not 100% sure that it came from the bench, let it go. If you call it, you're guessing.

Jmo....
+1

maybe Mom will keep quiet next time...sounds like she owes that team an apology for her actions.
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