Why are intentional fouls (2 shots & possession) rarely called in youth games.

[just another ref]

What are the qualifications of the officials in your league? It could be that your rules knowledge is greater than theirs.

From an officials' point of view, without seeing the plays in question, it is impossible to say whether such a call would have been justified or not.

[Loudwhistle]

My guess is your officials are very inexperienced and possibly volunteer and may not know what an intentional foul is. I see the same thing in our youth league games that I reff. Most of the time I'm the only certified reff and I "get" partners to work with that are HS basketball players or a parent that played in HS 10 years ago. I do 30-40 youth games (all volunteer) a year and I rarely (1 a year) call an intentional foul at this level. The players don't play "dirty" at this level generally whereas in HS some kids will push with two hands when a layup is attempted especially if it is their last foul. In youth league it seems they are playing the ball all the way to the hoop and just don't have good control of their bodies so bad collisions do occur, yet these fouls are not intentional due to the low skill of the players. These same collisions in HS wouldn't be an intentional foul either as long as the player made a legitimate attempt to block the ball. Sure there was contact but was it a "hard" abnormal collision? One would have to see it to really determine (where's Clark again with a utube) if it were intentional.
Good Luck, thanks for coaching America's Youth!

[agelof]

[QUOTE=Loudwhistle;655783]The players don't play "dirty" at this level generally whereas in HS some kids will push with two hands when a layup is attempted especially if it is their last foul. In youth league it seems they are playing the ball all the way to the hoop and just don't have good control of their bodies so bad collisions do occur, yet these fouls are not intentional due to the low skill of the players. These same collisions in HS wouldn't be an intentional foul either as long as the player made a legitimate attempt to block the ball. Sure there was contact but was it a "hard" abnormal collision?

This is what I am getting at .... bodies are always flying at the youth level more so than in higher levels. Most of the time the kids doing the hard fouls probably don't know any better .... like loudwhistle says they just don't have good control of their bodies. The problem I have is these collisions are so dangerous. Aren't we letting kids off the hook by interpeting that they just don't know any better. Officals are encouraging ignorance because kids are always given the benifit of the doubt. I'm trying to think of a good anaolgy. ..... If I dont want my kid playing with my gun and only punish him if he intentionally plays with it against my wishes ..... but never tell him he can't play with it ... I have created a vicious cycle where he is never told any better, thus he is never truly acting intentionally in a disobediant way. Nevertheless the dangerous conduct continues.

In my mind these fouls are almost always intentional. The kids on defense are trying to stop the layup attempt at all costs and don't even know they need to make an attempt at the ball. The certainly have good enough control of their bodies that if they have no hope of getting to the ball they could understand to let it go. I know we can get into a review of the plays and some (two hand push from behind) may be more obvious than others (hip check running pararel when they finally catch up to the play) .... but because this is one of the most dangerous situations that exists ... shouldn't officials aggresively interpet this rule? ..... again its not even on the coaches check list to tell the players what is proper to do if ignorance gives his team a benefit. (hack = a good play)

To me ... I would love to have an offical tell me before a game ... its a safety issue. I am going to interpet the intentional foul on fast break strictly. If a player fouls and is not clearly making a play on the ball (and he better get it) I am giving 2 shots +POI .... much less likely a kid is going to get hurt.

Cant we get the bodies to stop flying. I just dont get "these fouls are not intentional because of the low skill level of the players." That is the exact pet peave I have ..... if my low skill level 120 lb new to basketball from footbal 12 year old treats dribbling like a optional play when he charges to the basket mauling kids in his wake ... does he get a pass because he has a low skill level? It seems this is the only situation I know of where kids get a benefit for being low skill level and it just happens to create the most dangerous situation.

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by agelof

To me ... I would love to have an offical tell me before a game ... its a safety issue. I am going to interpet the intentional foul on fast break strictly. If a player fouls and is not clearly making a play on the ball (and he better get it) I am giving 2 shots +POI .... much less likely a kid is going to get hurt.

Cant we get the bodies to stop flying. I just dont get "these fouls are not intentional because of the low skill level of the players." That is the exact pet peave I have ..... if my low skill level 120 lb new to basketball from footbal 12 year old treats dribbling like a optional play when he charges to the basket mauling kids in his wake ... does he get a pass because he has a low skill level? It seems this is the only situation I know of where kids get a benefit for being low skill level and it just happens to create the most dangerous situation.

I have refereed this level a lot in this my first year. I have called a couple of intentional fouls. I do not think that calling them intentional or personal is going to alter the frequency or severity of contact.

[agelof]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I have refereed this level a lot in this my first year. I have called a couple of intentional fouls. I do not think that calling them intentional or personal is going to alter the frequency or severity of contact.

I disagree. You can count on coaches to coach to win. It shouldnt be that way but it is. If these fouls when they occur cost a coach a chance to win he will coach to avoid them. The more it hurts the more the coach will try to re-enforce the rule in pre-game and practice. We heard the same argument for calling reach in fouls, double dribble and travel consistently couple years back at U8 level. Argument was kids just can't change behavior because of age (or that its going to slow down games too much) a few coaches made the plea to start calling the games tighter .... of course ... you still get a kid or two that get (and should) and do get a wider bearth ...but when the kids started getting calls ... they started to learn what can do and cant and coaches emphasized skills more ....

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by agelof

...

In my mind these fouls are almost always intentional. The kids on defense are trying to stop the layup attempt at all costs and don't even know they need to make an attempt at the ball. The certainly have good enough control of their bodies that if they have no hope of getting to the ball they could understand to let it go. I know we can get into a review of the plays and some (two hand push from behind) may be more obvious than others (hip check running pararel when they finally catch up to the play) .... but because this is one of the most dangerous situations that exists ... shouldn't officials aggresively interpet this rule? ..... again its not even on the coaches check list to tell the players what is proper to do if ignorance gives his team a benefit. (hack = a good play)

To me ... I would love to have an offical tell me before a game ... its a safety issue. I am going to interpet the intentional foul on fast break strictly. If a player fouls and is not clearly making a play on the ball (and he better get it) I am giving 2 shots +POI .... much less likely a kid is going to get hurt.

Cant we get the bodies to stop flying. I just dont get "these fouls are not intentional because of the low skill level of the players." That is the exact pet peave I have ..... if my low skill level 120 lb new to basketball from footbal 12 year old treats dribbling like a optional play when he charges to the basket mauling kids in his wake ... does he get a pass because he has a low skill level? It seems this is the only situation I know of where kids get a benefit for being low skill level and it just happens to create the most dangerous situation.

Sounds like you should bring this up to the head of the league and get some education for the coaches. Low level, inexperienced or volunteer officials can only be called upon so much to clean this up. If the kids are taught that this isn't how you play, the problem ceases to exist.

[Mark Padgett]

We have no problem around my area with officials calling intentional fouls in the three different kids leagues I work. My partner called two and I called one in a 7th grade boys game last night. All three were quite obvious and none of them were flagrant, just intentional.

In my local kids rec league, I go over this point very strong with the HS kids I train.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

The players don't play "dirty" at this level generally whereas in HS some kids will push with two hands when a layup is attempted especially if it is their last foul. In youth league it seems they are playing the ball all the way to the hoop and just don't have good control of their bodies so bad collisions do occur, yet these fouls are not intentional due to the low skill of the players. These same collisions in HS wouldn't be an intentional foul either as long as the player made a legitimate attempt to block the ball. Sure there was contact but was it a "hard" abnormal collision? One would have to see it to really determine (where's Clark again with a utube) if it were intentional.

I want to add to this just a bit. We need to remember, and teach, that "intent" isn't really required for a foul to be ruled intentional. There are two "types" of foul that fit this category by rule.

1. Pushing from behind, grabbing the jersey, etc., where the player is simply trying to foul and doesn't even bother attempting to play the ball.

2. The excessively hard foul. This allows us to call the Int when the defender plays the ball but still causes a collision that is excessivly hard.