double whistle- violation/foul question

[mutantducky]

double whistle. Do you report the foul? I had a travel and partner had a foul on the defense. We ended up going POI given the ball back to the offense and just never reported the foul. told the coaches and they were fine and moved on quickly.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

double whistle. Do you report the foul? I had a travel and partner had a foul on the defense. We ended up going POI given the ball back to the offense and just never reported the foul. told the coaches and they were fine and moved on quickly.

Pregame this. This would not be acceptable in my area. Come together and decide which happened first and go with that. If they don't like it, too bad.

[just another ref]

Officials are supposed to get together and decide which happened first. 2.6 A&B

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

double whistle. Do you report the foul? I had a travel and partner had a foul on the defense. We ended up going POI given the ball back to the offense and just never reported the foul. told the coaches and they were fine and moved on quickly.

So you just ignored them both? You need to figure which happened first, go with that one.

[bigdogrunnin]

Cover this in Pre-game. You can't just put aside the rules. In most cases, you will likely hear officials say, "let's go with the lesser of the two infractions." In your case, that would have been the travel. At camps, they might refer to this as "managing" the game.

I know in our area, if we have a double whistle with a violation/foul, the violation will almost always be the call (unless the foul was excessive/severe).

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

In most cases, you will likely hear officials say, "let's go with the lesser of the two infractions." In your case, that would have been the travel. At camps, they might refer to this as "managing" the game.

I have never heard of this --here or anywhere else, including camps. By rule you must determine which happened first (even if they seemed to happen "simultaneously").

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I have never heard of this, here or anywhere else, including camps. By rule you must determine which happened first (even if they seemed to happen "simultaneously").

Sometimes the foul causes the player to travel. That's the easy one to take care of in a quick pow wow between the officials. The player who travels into a foul will take a few extra seconds of discussion, but it can be properly taken care of. The type of language that should be used in this pow wow is something like, "I saw your travel, but my foul came first", or, "I saw your foul, but my travel came first".

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The type of language that should be used in this pow wow is something like, "I saw your travel, but my foul came first", or, "I saw your foul, but my travel came first".

Disagree. All that does is tell your partner that your call is right and his was wrong. I know a few officials that wouldn't take kindly to you taking over the call.

Ask your partner what he had, tell him what you had, and then reach a consensus as to which occurred first.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Disagree. All that does is tell your partner that your call is right and his was wrong. I know a few officials that wouldn't take kindly to you taking over the call.

Ask your partner what he had, tell him what you had, and then reach a consensus as to which occurred first.

...and generally speaking, the travel was caused by the foul OR the travel happened before the contact. Such a discussion as JR suggests generally leads to a much more relaxed officiating crew for the rest of the game.

Of course, if you continue to disagree, as nevada always says, "First one to the table wins!"

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Disagree. All that does is tell your partner that your call is right and his was wrong. I know a few officials that wouldn't take kindly to you taking over the call. Ask your partner what he had, tell him what you had, and then reach a consensus as to which occurred first.

OK. I see your point. But what I'm saying is not that my partner's call is incorrect, but rather I saw his call, agree with his call, but mine came first. I probably don't have to ask him what he had, I already know if he had a violation (hand), or a foul (fist), and he may have given a travel signal, or a preliminary foul signal.

How about: "I saw your travel, but I believe that my foul came first?", or, "I saw your foul, but I believe that my travel came first?". Better?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Disagree. All that does is tell your partner that your call is right and his was wrong. I know a few officials that wouldn't take kindly to you taking over the call.

Ask your partner what he had, tell him what you had, and then reach a consensus as to which occurred first.

I am going to disagree with you JR on this. Put your ego at the door. If a violation happened first, we need to get the violation. If the foul caused a violation we need to get the foul. And when there is a double whistle like this usually it started in someone's area. The whistle occurred in someone else's area too. I would love if my partner called the first thing and made that clear to me. I never want to make a call that was caused by another violation of the rules. I think I can handle if someone does this to me. It does not happen very often, but it does happen.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I have never heard of this --here or anywhere else, including camps. By rule you must determine which happened first (even if they seemed to happen "simultaneously").

I've heard it when trying to deteremine between an offensive foul and a travel, but never in discussion about a defensive foul. If the defense caused the travel with the foul, and you choose the "lesser" of the two offenses, you've screwed the offense.

[Raymond]

I ALWAYS pre-game this: If we have an open-hand and closed-fist then we get together and determine which happened first.