Overturning an OOB call

[KCRC]

Originally Posted by bigwhistle

The calling official may have passed on a foul or some other action and awarded the ball to a team on purpose.

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

I also would prefer he/she come to me just in case I passed on a foul (in this case there wasn't anything to pass on).

Newbie here. Actually prebie. I am considering an attempt to become an official in a couple of years, and thought I would use free time until that point to become as familiar with the rules as possible. This forum is helping a great deal in that regard.

Based on the above quotes, I am curious to get a rules reference for a situation I observed this past Saturday. Junior College game, NCAA rules. A1 controls a defensive rebound near the corner of endline and sideline in front of B's bench. B1 immediately picks up A1 in a full court man-to-man defense. B1 swipes at ball (looked like maybe a foul but maybe not) and causes A1 to lose possession, after which the ball clearly (from where I was sitting) goes off A1's knee and out of bounds on the sideline. T blows whistle and signals Team A's ball and spot throw-in on sideline. B's bench goes crazy. B's coach stands up and yells to T that the ball went off A1's knee. T says something to B's coach in an attempt at an explanation. B's coach then immediately yells, "then call a foul, you just can't give them the ball if it went off her leg." T ignores B's coach, administers the throw-in and the game proceeds without further incident.

Does anyone have a rules reference or explanation for the practice of "passing on a foul" and awarding the ball to the team that touched it last before going out of bounds? If this has been discussed before, I apologize, I couldn't find anything using the search function. Thanks for the help.

[Gargil]

I am not sure why you would ever pass on a foul. Can anyone explain? I am also a newbie and this does not make sense to me.

[doubleringer]

Small tidbit here, but rather than thinking of this as "overturning" an oob call, I like to think of it as adding additional information. After that it's the calling official's decision on which way we go.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

Small tidbit here, but rather than thinking of this as "overturning" an oob call, I like to think of it as adding additional information. After that it's the calling official's decision on which way we go.

Correct, that's why I don't blow my whistle when providing additional information. IMHO, blowing your whistle gives the perception your making the call, not your partner. It implies a disagreement.

In another scenario, If I'm not sure on a call, I blow whistle, raise hand, and look for help. Partner never blows in this situation either. In both cases it shows we're a team, and there is no alpha male in the group.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Correct, that's why I don't blow my whistle when providing additional information. IMHO, blowing your whistle gives the perception your making the call, not your partner. It implies a disagreement.

In another scenario, If I'm not sure on a call, I blow whistle, raise hand, and look for help. Partner never blows in this situation either. In both cases it shows we're a team, and there is no alpha male in the group.

I blow my whistle to let everyone know that we *may* not be going to the other end of the floor. Yes, it tells everyone we're talking. But I'm not coming in unless I know we're going to change it (absent something I simply did not see) so 99% of the time he will change it.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I blow my whistle to let everyone know that we *may* not be going to the other end of the floor. Yes, it tells everyone we're talking. But I'm not coming in unless I know we're going to change it (absent something I simply did not see) so 99% of the time he will change it.

I'm sticking to my view that when you blow, everyone thinks you're overiding your partner's call. You and your partner know what's going on but others don't

You don't need a whistle to let people know you are talking because you ARE talking, they can see that. Perception is reality, you blow your whistle after your partner blows his, crowd, coaches are now looking for you to overide everything. Bad precedent IMO

I would only blow if partner didn't see me and that could happen especially in two man if we're going the other way. That said, as a rule, I don't like to blow for reasons in previous post.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Gargil

I am not sure why you would ever pass on a foul. Can anyone explain? I am also a newbie and this does not make sense to me.

You must've been working the JV game in front of me the other night -- the one where there was 60 fouls and we got the V game started 35 minutes late.

If there's a marginal bump and the ball shoots out of bounds some officials will simply call the out of bounds violation and life goes on (in the middle of the floor there's no leeway -- loss of possession due to contact and it's going to be called a foul).

Some are for it, some are against it, few are stupid enough to try to explain that to a coach. Silence can't be misquoted.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

If there's a marginal bump and the ball shoots out of bounds some officials will simply call the out of bounds violation and life goes on (in the middle of the floor there's no leeway -- loss of possession due to contact and it's going to be called a foul).

Some are for it, some are against it, few are stupid enough to try to explain that to a coach. Silence can't be misquoted.

This is exactly right. You may or may not like it, but it's the expected call in some areas. Frankly, in this situation, I'd make a note of it and change the way I go about it. Around here, I have explained this to coaches (it's the expected practice) and they understand it. I've never had one question it after the explanation.

In this case, I'd simply stop doing it and start calling the fouls. I might even be inclined to change the initial call to a foul on B1 (assuming I remembered B1's number).

[KCRC]

Rich and Snaq,

Thanks for the info. I'm not sure if I like it or not. My gut reaction is that I'm not a fan of passing on a foul. However, I could be convinced otherwise when I start calling games myself.

Correct me if I am wrong. A summary of your feedback is that the practice is not really supported by rule, but is a mechanic or technique to manage the flow of the game. Many, if not most, assigners or evaluators expect the technique to be used. So it is used.

Has anyone ever come accross an assignor or evaluator that specifically did not support the technique?

[Adam]

I don't want to speak for "most" areas, so I don't know how widely used it is. I can tell you the feedback I've gotten from the more senior refs in my association (the refs I've been told to listen to) on both formal evaluations and informal discussions has been to use this.

Now, there are two scenarios where this happens.

1. White contacts blue in the process of the ball going out of bounds off of white.

2. White contacts blue in the process of the ball going out of bounds off of blue.

1 may not actually be a foul, due to the advantage being negated by the ball going OOB. This is a legitimate no-call by rule.

2 is more sketchy by rule, but there are some locales where it's expected on slight contact that should, by rule, be a foul due to the result of the play.