Overturning your partner (again)

[akalsey]

All-star play started today in our Little League district so I stopped by to watch the opening game at a local field. I saw two things that dumbfounded me.

R2, batter hits a comebacker and the pitcher has trouble with it. Once the pitcher get the ball, he throws to F3 for a close play. R2 moves to third and the BU is standing about where F6 should be when he calls BR out.

The ball is returned to the pitcher and as he's starting his windup, the third base coach comes charging down the line toward the PU while yelling "time" two or three times. The plate ump grants time and coach says, "F3 pulled his foot, go tell your partner." The umps confer near the mound and then the PU yells into the dugout, "tell that runner to go back to 1st." The runner returns to base, the out is erased, and the game resumes.

What does the coach think he's doing telling the PU to set his partner straight? What does the PU think he's doing reversing the call of his partner? If both umps saw the play at 1B, who was supposed to be watching R2 and the possible play at third?

The kicker? I was watching the play at 1B. F3 didn't pull his foot. The BU made the right call (from a terrible angle).

The other thing that happened was on a popup near the plate the PU yanked off his mask with his right hand, nearly dropped it and caught it by the strap as it fell. He almost lost some teeth while signaling the out.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by akalsey
All-star play started today in our Little League district so I stopped by to watch the opening game at a local field. I saw two things that dumbfounded me.

R2, batter hits a comebacker and the pitcher has trouble with it. Once the pitcher get the ball, he throws to F3 for a close play. R2 moves to third and the BU is standing about where F6 should be when he calls BR out.

The ball is returned to the pitcher and as he's starting his windup, the third base coach comes charging down the line toward the PU while yelling "time" two or three times. The plate ump grants time and coach says, "F3 pulled his foot, go tell your partner." The umps confer near the mound and then the PU yells into the dugout, "tell that runner to go back to 1st." The runner returns to base, the out is erased, and the game resumes.

What does the coach think he's doing telling the PU to set his partner straight? What does the PU think he's doing reversing the call of his partner? If both umps saw the play at 1B, who was supposed to be watching R2 and the possible play at third?

The kicker? I was watching the play at 1B. F3 didn't pull his foot. The BU made the right call (from a terrible angle).

The other thing that happened was on a popup near the plate the PU yanked off his mask with his right hand, nearly dropped it and caught it by the strap as it fell. He almost lost some teeth while signaling the out.

Hey you have LL umpires working a LL game. What did you expect? If they were perfect, do you think they would be doing that game. Give them a break.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by jicecone

Hey you have LL umpires working a LL game. What did you expect? If they were perfect, do you think they would be doing that game. Give them a break.

Careful, Careful. Those that criticize Little League umpires during tournament time get burned by LL fanatics. I enjoy the fireworks, however, so keep at it.

This brings to mind a comment that I made in one of my articles that infuriated a LL fanatic. I said that one should consider that the best Little League umpires work the tournaments. From that, imagine how bad the umpires are that work the regular season.

Duck and cover;

Peter

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by akalsey
All-star play started today in our Little League district so I stopped by to watch the opening game at a local field. I saw two things that dumbfounded me.

R2, batter hits a comebacker and the pitcher has trouble with it. Once the pitcher get the ball, he throws to F3 for a close play. R2 moves to third and the BU is standing about where F6 should be when he calls BR out.

The ball is returned to the pitcher and as he's starting his windup, the third base coach comes charging down the line toward the PU while yelling "time" two or three times. The plate ump grants time and coach says, "F3 pulled his foot, go tell your partner." The umps confer near the mound and then the PU yells into the dugout, "tell that runner to go back to 1st." The runner returns to base, the out is erased, and the game resumes.

What does the coach think he's doing telling the PU to set his partner straight? What does the PU think he's doing reversing the call of his partner? If both umps saw the play at 1B, who was supposed to be watching R2 and the possible play at third?

The kicker? I was watching the play at 1B. F3 didn't pull his foot. The BU made the right call (from a terrible angle).

The other thing that happened was on a popup near the plate the PU yanked off his mask with his right hand, nearly dropped it and caught it by the strap as it fell. He almost lost some teeth while signaling the out.

And people wonder why I am so adamant about not doing this stuff. But when I voice my opinion, I'm told that I need to "chill out". Well here you are - a perfect example of why you should not do this crap ant any level. But that's okay... go ahead and "get the call right" and change calls left and right. At least I know that in my association, we get our help 1st then make the call and that's the right way to do it.

And I am not upset, I am very calm and I am done with this.

[wobster]

akalsey - you are correct, these umpires are crap, as are a lot of little league umpires. That is why around here, they do not do tournaments. We (and all other leagues around) get high school and other certified umpires. I work most little league games, and I am certified, so I have been getting calls left and right this week asking me to work the games. When I show up to do it, I have a lot of LL umpires ask me questions that they should know the answer to. They are simply not very good, YET.

I will not hold the fact that they are not very good against them, as that is where I started, as did everyone else. They have simply not been doing it as long as the better umpires.

Maybe you should have stuck around after the game and told the guys what they did wrong and why, I am sure they would have appreciated it.

[jicecone]

Peter, Peter

Let me re-phrase that more in the context that it was intented. They had officials working that game with ability that was commensurate with the level of play. Been there, done that, would do it again if asked, worked on my game and moved on.

I know that may not sit well with the perfectionist out there, to think that there children were subjected to sub professional officiating but, deems da breaks. It tis what it tis.

[PeteBooth]

I think it's time to Post Papa C's FAB V concerning this issue.

The FAB 5 (When calls may be legally changed)

1. Half swing called a ball changed to strike. (OBR 9.02c CMTs 1, 2, 3)

2. Two umpires make opposite calls on the same play. (common sense: only one can be accepted)

3. An umpire misapplies a rule. (9.02b/c)

4. Home run changed to double, vice versa; fair to foul, vice versa on balls hit out of the park. (professional practice)

5. "Out" called on a tag play, but the ball falls free, and another umpire observes it. (JEA 9:15-16)

The Terrible Three (Three times a call CANNOT be legally changed after it's made)

1. Swipe tag
2. Force play (or play on BR at first)
3. Fielder on/off the bag

Makes life simpler.

Pete Booth

[rmstone]

Ok heres a situation I've seen recently...

FU is making a call at first (comming from behind the mound) and his angle gets cut off by a second baseman comming into his view. He calls the runner out. The PU(me) is standing at home looking straight down the line to first observes the first basemans foot is off the bag by at least 3 feet! I'm not kidding, for real, 3 full feet. THe field umpire from his angle saw the timing right on, and the throw did beat the runner so he called him out. He has no idea the firstbaseman was no where near. Coaches start to complain and the first base coach looks at me, knowing I very CLEARLY saw the pulled foot.

Do I blow it off and simply say "not my call coach" or go change the call?

[jicecone]

Originally posted by rmstone
Ok heres a situation I've seen recently...

FU is making a call at first (comming from behind the mound) and his angle gets cut off by a second baseman comming into his view. He calls the runner out. The PU(me) is standing at home looking straight down the line to first observes the first basemans foot is off the bag by at least 3 feet! I'm not kidding, for real, 3 full feet. THe field umpire from his angle saw the timing right on, and the throw did beat the runner so he called him out. He has no idea the firstbaseman was no where near. Coaches start to complain and the first base coach looks at me, knowing I very CLEARLY saw the pulled foot.

Do I blow it off and simply say "not my call coach" or go change the call?

None of you business unless your partner asks for help. Then again, how in the world does your partner not notice F3 , 3 feet off the bag. We have to be talking a younger level game here with an inexperienced official. Were you the senior official? Then you have to be delicate how this is handled. There are just to many factors, Level, age ,etc, that a straight answer can be made here.For the most part, if your partner does not ask for help, take the out and move on.

[JRutledge]

rmstone,

This is what the pregame is for. If that happens, you should have discussed some scenario to correct a mistake like this. You might had a signal, you might have a look. Whatever it is, let him come to you on this call.

I know if you are the PU, you would not want your partner to come to you and change a "checked" swing call with our you asking for help. So this is not much different.

Of course there will be folks that disagree. But you are a team. Your partner should be able to ask for help when needed. This play sounds like it is needed.

Peace

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by rmstone
Ok heres a situation I've seen recently...

FU is making a call at first (comming from behind the mound) and his angle gets cut off by a second baseman comming into his view. He calls the runner out. The PU(me) is standing at home looking straight down the line to first observes the first basemans foot is off the bag by at least 3 feet! I'm not kidding, for real, 3 full feet. THe field umpire from his angle saw the timing right on, and the throw did beat the runner so he called him out. He has no idea the firstbaseman was no where near. Coaches start to complain and the first base coach looks at me, knowing I very CLEARLY saw the pulled foot.

Do I blow it off and simply say "not my call coach" or go change the call?

First, Papa C's fab five are out of date. If the MLB umpires have to get it right, so do we. It is irrelevant what was standard practice ten years ago. Since then, the umpires lost their union and Bud Selig has taken over and redefined the rules. We have to live with it because like it or not, the coaches take their cue from what the see on TV.

Somehow, the PU must get the BU's attention. Here is what I would do. Your association politics may differ:

If I was working with a big dog, I would wait for him to come to me for help. If the coach came to me and asked why I did not change the call, I would explain that I cannot change my partner's call. I would explain that my partner has to ask me for help. Hopefully, the coach would get the hint and go to my partner and implore him to ask me for help. If my partner would not come to me, tough s$$$ for the coach.

OTOH, if my partner was a little dog and would not come to me for help, I would wander out there while he was arguing with the coach and take him aside and tell him what happened. One way or another, this call would be changed if I was the big dog on the game.

This is because my assignor holds the senior man accountable for what happens on the field. We get blamed if a little dog screws up and we can fix it but don't. If I am going to be blamed, then I am going to insert myself into the situation and to heck with umpire convention.

Peter

[jumpmaster]

In our association, the PU makes a fist with his right hand at navel height in order to non-verbally say "I see an out". If the PU sees the foot come off, he points with his right hand at navel height to non-verbally say "I see the F3 pulled". If the PU does nothing, the BU is on his own. This method provides the information to the BU without causing a ruckus.

In addition to this mechanic, I would have handled this situation like Peter.

Pre-game and Post-game of this are essential when this happens.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by His High Holiness

First, Papa C's fab five are out of date. If the MLB umpires have to get it right, so do we. It is irrelevant what was standard practice ten years ago. Since then, the umpires lost their union and Bud Selig has taken over and redefined the rules. We have to live with it because like it or not, the coaches take their cue from what the see on TV.

So what the pros do, means we have to follow? Last time I checked in all sports, the pros have more officials, more training and a different philsophy. More video tape evaluation, they are evaluated every game and ever play.

Just because the MLB Umpires do something, does not mean all levels follow. Just look at their uniform. They changed their uniform, I cannot wear those at the many levels I work.

So yes it would be nice to get every play right, but if I am watching my partner's calls, then what am I missing in my coverage or responsiblity area?

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

So what the pros do, means we have to follow? Last time I checked in all sports, the pros have more officials, more training and a different philsophy. More video tape evaluation, they are evaluated every game and ever play.

Yes, that's what makes them the best at what they do. Emulating their mechanics, techniques and demeanor will make all of us better.

Just because the MLB Umpires do something, does not mean all levels follow.

When it comes to better mechanics, techniques and demeanor...yes, that is what we are saying. How can you complain about Papa C being out of touch and then say that it's wrong to change to a better way of umpiring?

So yes it would be nice to get every play right, but if I am watching my partner's calls, then what am I missing in my coverage or responsiblity area?
Probably nothing, unless both officials are useless. I watch the ball, I may have to glance at my guy to see a bag get touched, but most good umpires also catch the ending play (i.e. they followed the ball).

[rmstone]

Thanks guys!!! This really helped...

And no it wasn't a young or rookie umpire, he just ended up in a bad spot, he had the pitcher and secondbaseman all jumbled up at first and just had too many people between him and the play to get a decent angle (little league plays are rarely ever clean ). I did get his attention and we reversed it in this case.

We've never had a signal setup for this, but it sounds like a good idea to use the clenched first or point system. Will definatly set that up.

And who was the big dawg? You tell me... I'm a 20 year old working on my 9th year of umpiring. The FU is a 40+ year old man thats had about 7-8 years umping. Tough call on the big dawg here

So you signal this very discretely and then what? If he sees you signal a pulled foot he can then ask for help and it looks better going down that way?

Thanks again guys, really cleared this up... also I agree with "His High Holiness" on if its a young umpire who won't come to you its still important to probably get this one right.