bad information

[Mark Padgett]

It's simple. Prior to the game starting, I tell the table to let us know only when a team gets into the bonus or double bonus, when a player has five fouls and when a team has used it's last timeout. Other than that, we don't want to know the status of any of those issues.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Dbyb

JV-G game. At 3 minutes in the 4th quarter R goes to table and asks for time outs left to each team. Scorer says Home has 0 time outs left and Visitors have 1. R conveys this information to each coach. At 1 minute left, Visitor coach calls a time out. R grants the time out, reports it and has the timer start the clock. Scorer then tells the R that Visitors, in fact, had no timeouts left and that earlier she had made a mistake and should have said Home had 1time out and Visitors had 0. (The 16 year old scorer just reversed the time outs and there was no visitor book to cross check). R now assesses a tech to the Visitors. Visitor coach is understandably upset having taken a time out that she was informed she had and then assessed a tech for not having it. The tech was assessed, both shots made, and she lost by 1 point.

Once the time out had been granted, was there any other option than the one we took?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Interesting. You have a local rules interpreter that advocates ignoring a very plainly written rule. And you haven't found any officials at all in your area that would also also follow a plainly written rule--for whatever reasons. And you've got a state final official that also wouldn't follow a plainly written rule. A state final official that would grant a TO, find out that it's an excess TO, and then cancel the TO so that he didn't have to call a "T". I'd love to see your state final official make that call at the end of a state championship game. Fwiw and if it'll make you feel better, Chris Webber would probably agree with that state official in a heartbeat though . Methinks that your area has a heckuva lot of work to do in the education of their officials. Note that's jmo.

In my experience, I don't know one good official that wouldn't make that call. They might not like the rule personally and they also personally might not want to follow the rule, but they would do it. the caveat obviously is that I and they are not in your area(I think).

And information from the scorebook is..well... official? Cool. Gee, I take it that under that philosophy we can't go back and correct any scorer's errors made under rule 2-10 or fix any scorer's mistakes under rule 2-11-11 either. Heckuva idea ...and a heckuva rules interpreter you got there, Coach. Btw, mentioning rule 2-11-11, I guess your rules interpreter never read the l'il sentence in there that says "A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score. Nope, once it's entered in the scorebook, it's ..well...official.

And right there, folks, you'll find the biggest difference between how a coach thinks and how an official thinks. A coach thinks that a rule should only be valid and enforced if it's fair to his team in his opinion. An official knows that the rules were written trying to be fair to BOTH teams, and that if we won't follow a plainly written rule it not only gives an unfair advantage to one team but it unfairly penalizes the other team at the same time. You only worry about YOUR team, coach. But we have to worry about BOTH teams. And if we don't call that deserved "T" in the play being discussed, we just screwed the other team.

Sorry, coach, we completely disagree philosophically on this one and we always will.

JR,
First of all, once I got beyond my view, I am only the messenger. At the same time, there are a few other interesting aspects to this situation. Keep in mind that in this case -- and ALL cases, there are TWO coaches. I am typically the coach with at least one or two timeouts left. My trusty scorekeeper is always working directly with the official book when he is not the official book to confirm all timeouts. It is a very rare game, indeed, when I do not know EXACTLY how many timeouts I have left. But, that is another discussion.

Per the original post, BOTH coaches were informed of the timeout situation. Apparently, the home coach was OK when told he was out of timeouts. He likely would have heard that the other team had one timeout left, as well. If he had a problem with the accuracy of the book, this would have provided a great time to argue for an additional timeout, if he did, in fact, deserve it. Yet, he said NOTHING. Therefore, when that timeout was called, I am guessing that the home coach did not feel as though he was getting "screwed" ME THINKS he thought that the officials properly permitted his opponent to receive his/her fifth and final timeout.

In this situation, the "Official Book" SPOKE -- rather than just being written. Neither my rules interpreter nor I believe that a book CANNOT be changed. However, if the book was SPOKEN officially to indicate one thing, the book better be SPOKEN again to correct the error. This should mean, sounding the horn (TWO MINUTES elapsed in the post -- NO EXCUSE for not conveying this information to the game officials AND the coaches) to officially CHANGE the book.

My concern is that what actually may have happened here is that someone may have gotten into the ear of the 16 year old scorekeeper and convinced her to change the book -- quite probably "screwing" the visiting team.

This "convenient" HOME TEAM official book change CLEARLY was a MAjOR benefit to the HOME TEAM. If you are OK with that, that is fine. But, as you have stated we philosophically disagree that an on-the-fly "stealth" change is "fair" and within the rules. I -- eitther as an official, as the visiting coach, as the home coach or as a coach simply watching the game feel that such a change to the official scorebook should require notification that such a change has taken place -- keep in mind, the scorer kept his/her little "secret" (the change is timeouts remaining) for a FULL ONE HUNDRED TWENTY SECONDS!!! Failure to notify a change in the book in this case is a failure to make a change and we are going with what the scorer's documentation last indicated.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

This "convenient" HOME TEAM official book change CLEARLY was a MAjOR benefit to the HOME TEAM.

Could be, but the play was also called correctly by rule.

OK, let me ask you a question....and forget about home and visitors.....the scorebook is supposed to be neutral. And mistakes will made honestly.

You're the coach of a team in a state high school championship game. Your team has never been in a state championship game before, let alone won one. You're down by 1 point with 10 seconds to go. The opposing team has a spot throw-in under your basket after you called your last timeout. You're pressing naturally and you've also told your players to foul immediately if they can't steal the ball on the throw-in. The thrower is up to a 4-count, which you know by watching the official's arm, when the thrower asks for a timeout. The timeout is granted. You now hear the scorer tell the official that the opposing team didn't have any timeouts left. The official responds by telling the scorer that it's OK and it isn't a technical foul because your opponents weren't exactly sure how many TO's they had left. Soooooo, you tell me....are you, the coach who just spent hundreds of hours with your kids getting them ready for a state championship game, now gonna say "Gee, that's fair. I agree with that completely."?

Be honest.

Btw, if you need to call another timeout also, do you think that you should be able to now take another one too--because "fair's fair"? Or is that concept only good for one team at a time? And if you do call an extra timeout and get a "T" for it, are you just gonna nod your head and say "Gee, I agree with that call too. That's different"?

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Could be, but the play was also called correctly by rule.

OK, let me ask you a question....and forget about home and visitors.....the scorebook is supposed to be neutral. And mistakes will made honestly.

You're the coach of a team in a state high school championship game. Your team has never been in a state championship game before, let alone won one. You're down by 1 point with 10 seconds to go. The opposing team has a spot throw-in under your basket after you called your last timeout. You're pressing naturally and you've also told your players to foul immediately if they can't steal the ball on the throw-in. The thrower is up to a 4-count, which you know by watching the official's arm, when the thrower asks for a timeout. The timeout is granted. You now hear the scorer tell the official that the opposing team didn't have any timeouts left. The official responds by telling the scorer that it's OK and it isn't a technical foul because your opponents weren't exactly sure how many TO's they had left. Soooooo, you tell me....are you, the coach who just spent hundreds of hours with your kids getting them ready for a state championship game, now gonna say "Gee, that's fair. I agree with that completely."?

Be honest.

Btw, if you need to call another timeout also, do you think that you should be able to now take another one too--because "fair's fair"? Or is that concept only good for one team at a time? And if you do call an extra timeout and get a "T" for it, are you just gonna nod your head and say "Gee, I agree with that call too. That's different"?

JR,
Good scenario. First of all, I am going to know how many timeouts I have and my opponents have in this situation. because I am going to go to the source -- the official scorer (with confirmation with my scorer). If there is a discrepancy, the official scorer's information is the one that matters (see my post in regards to indicating that even if I KNOW I have only called four timeouts, if the OFFICIAL SCORER says we have called five, that is the OFFICIAL answer). Therefore, there will not be uncertainty as I have gotten the information from the OFFICIAL SCORER.

Keep in mind, to make your situation close to the OP, my opposing coach was formally told he had ONE TIMEOUT remaining. I would be asking the question of the scorer the timeout situation for both teams. Therefore, I would know how many timeouts, if any, both of us have. If the count gets to four, I will know whether we are one second from a turnover or whether we are likely going to have to put a defensive stop together, again.

I brought up this situation at one of our association's meeting tonight. I specifically asked the question of the local interpreter from this association -- different from the other interpreter I mentioned earlier. Initially, he indicated that a technical foul had to be called by rule. The more I explained -- 16 year old scorer, no visitor scorer, etc. -- the more he became troubled by the situation. He indicated that he would ask for all timeout information throughout the game. In the event that the scorer did not indicate specifics of the timeouts, he indicated that this would be "problematic."

Nearly all officials I asked to give their opinion indicated they would not issue a technical foul since the official book indicated four timeouts had been used.

This is the issue, Jurassic. When is "official" official? I understand that a scorer can make an administrative change until the score has been verified. But, would you agree that this situation is at least somewhat troubling? Keeping track of five timeouts during a heated game can be a challenge for a coach. We are relying on the accuracy of the official scorer (with our scorer keeping a record for comparison as well). Unlike the situation that you proposed to me, in the OP, there was no dispute that the scorer through the official had passed along inaccurate information. in the OP. Unlike your situation, the coach clearly thought he had a timeout left because the OFFICIAL SOURCE of such information had CONFIRMED it.

While the OP did not give intimate details of the situation leading to the timeout, there is a possibility that the team was under little to no duress. In your situation, if my opposing coach did not call a timeout, it would have resulted in a turnover -- possibly. If the coach had been informed that he had no timeouts left, he would have no argument. Even if he had not been informed, I could live with the coach or team being responsible for asking for the official information.

But, in the OP, the coach had been given specific information that HE HAD ONE TIMEOUT remaining. This is what I am struggling with in this situation. If the coach had PRESUMED he had a timeout left, the coach would be wrong -- technical foul would have been well earned (Chris Weber would fit into this category). If the coach had relied on his own scorer, the coach would be wrong -- once again, a technical foul would have been earned. But, in this case, the coach went directly to the source -- actually, the information was provided from the source via the official came to him. There was NO intention to "cheat" the other team by taking an extra timeout. He was merely calling a timeout that he had been OFFICIALLY TOLD he had -- there was no dispute, there was no confusion.

The number of timeouts a team has remaining is one of the most important pieces of information a scorer is responsible for tracking accurately. I have a real problem with a scorer making such a MAJOR change without communicating this information to the officials and the coaches. Remember, in the OP, two minutes had elapsed. Certainly, enough time to communicate the change to the officials and coaches.

The scorer has, quite possibly, cost this team a chance to win a game because they make a change in their book AND INFORMED NO ONE.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

1) When is "official" official?

2) But, would you agree that this situation is at least somewhat troubling?

1) As soon as the scorer told me that a team had just taken an excess timeout, that information would be "official". Whether there was a bookkeeping mistake made beforehand is irrelevant rules-wise. We have to go with the correct information. We don't get a choice in this situation.

2) Yup, it's troubling. But the fact that it's troubling is also completely irrelevant rules-wise.

I've kicked this one to death and I'm just repeating myself. Time for me to let it go (I hope).

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) As soon as the scorer told me that a team had just taken an excess timeout, that information would be "official". Whether there was a bookkeeping mistake made beforehand is irrelevant rules-wise. We have to go with the correct information. We don't get a choice in this situation.

Situation: Team A HC requests and is granted a TO. Scorer informs official that this is an excess TO. Official rules a T and awards Team B 2 FTs. A) Before the official puts the ball at the disposal of B1 for the division line throw-in; or B) About 2 minutes later (including several live and dead balls, etc.); the scorer buzzes the officials and says that he erred; the timeout that team A had taken was actually their 5th and Team B was actually the one out of time outs. What is the ruling?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Situation: Team A HC requests and is granted a TO. Scorer informs official that this is an excess TO. Official rules a T and awards Team B 2 FTs. A) Before the official puts the ball at the disposal of B1 for the division line throw-in; or B) About 2 minutes later (including several live and dead balls, etc.); the scorer buzzes the officials and says that he erred; the timeout that team A had taken was actually their 5th and Team B was actually the one out of time outs. What is the ruling?

a) correctable error. No different than the case plays where a 1-1 or 2-shot "bonus" is shot in error.

b) no longer correctable.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Situation: Team A HC requests and is granted a TO. Scorer informs official that this is an excess TO. Official rules a T and awards Team B 2 FTs. A) Before the official puts the ball at the disposal of B1 for the division line throw-in; or B) About 2 minutes later (including several live and dead balls, etc.); the scorer buzzes the officials and says that he erred; the timeout that team A had taken was actually their 5th and Team B was actually the one out of time outs. What is the ruling?

We've discussed this question before.
A) got us into a big discussion on the use of the correctable error rule and its possible application to this situation.
B) was pretty much agreed that it was too late to fix anything so live with it and file a report to the governing authority.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

JR,
My concern is that what actually may have happened here is that someone may have gotten into the ear of the 16 year old scorekeeper and convinced her to change the book -- quite probably "screwing" the visiting team.

This "convenient" HOME TEAM official book change CLEARLY was a MAjOR benefit to the HOME TEAM. If you are OK with that, that is fine. But, as you have stated we philosophically disagree that an on-the-fly "stealth" change is "fair" and within the rules. I -- eitther as an official, as the visiting coach, as the home coach or as a coach simply watching the game feel that such a change to the official scorebook should require notification that such a change has taken place -- keep in mind, the scorer kept his/her little "secret" (the change is timeouts remaining) for a FULL ONE HUNDRED TWENTY SECONDS!!! Failure to notify a change in the book in this case is a failure to make a change and we are going with what the scorer's documentation last indicated.

In the OP, it was relayed that this was a simple communication mistake. One team was out of TOs, one had one left, unfortunately the scorer "flipped" them accidentally when communicating to the official. While regrettable, mistakes happen and the correct procedure is that when the excessive TO was granted and the scorer realized what had happened, a T was the appropriate call.

Coach's post took the OP to a different level. If you, as an official, believe the scorer changed what was in the book (not just miscommunicated, but got out his pencil and eraser and changed the book), then a quick investigation is in order relative to when the TOs were recorded, exactly what happened, etc. If that leads you to the point where you know the book was purposefully changed you (may) have other remedies available, up to and including flagrant technical fouls, to deal with the situation. And if in that discussion you realize that it wasn't an excessive TO, you don't have a technical foul.

What we're dealing with in the OP is miscommunication and the only remedy is enforcing the rules.

[Texas Aggie]

Only inform them when they have zero left.

I quit doing even that a long time ago.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

I quit doing even that a long time ago.

What other rules do you not follow? Do you keep a list and hand the list to your coaches, and partner, before each game?

Team A has only one game left, and needs one more win, to make the state tournament. The scorekeeper informs you that Team A has used all five of their timeouts, but you choose not to inform the Team A Coach, in fact, you quit doing that a long time ago. Ten seconds left, Team A is up by one. Possession arrow gives Team B the next alternating possession. A1 is trapped in the corner of his frontcourt, with the official approaching the end of his five second count, and with A1 in danger of having a held ball called between himself, and B1, who already has one hand on the ball. Team A coach requests, and is granted a timeout, his sixth, which leads to Team B making both technical foul free throws, successfully inbounding the ball at the division line, and winning the game. After the game the losing coach explains to the local media that he didn't realize that he had used his last timeout because he was never informed by an official and he is one of the few coaches in the state that knows most of the rules and cites: NFHS 2-11-6: The scorer shall: record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out.

Now, how do you explain that to your assigner when he calls you the next morning.

I wish I can recall who posted it, but an esteemed member once said, and I'm paraphrasing here, it's always really easy to explain problem situations when you follow the rules. I suggest that you take his words to heart, and even though you quit following this rule a long time ago, that you change your ways, and start following this rule starting in your next game.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

After the game the losing coach explains to the local media that he didn't realize that he had used his last timeout because he can't count to five

Fixed it for ya'.

[chseagle]

There's been a few times this year that I've had to remind the home/official book to put down the timeouts

For the Varsity games, the person that does the home/official book keeps track of the timeouts, AP, & Running score (marking a progressive score in the margins of the scorebook).

Just wish that those that did JV & C-Squad books did the same thing.

[Adam]

I guess that surprises me, as I've never had an issue with this even in JV and C squad games. I don't even remember having a problem in middle school, AAU, or anything else.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I guess that surprises me, as I've never had an issue with this even in JV and C squad games. I don't even remember having a problem in middle school, AAU, or anything else.

I've mentioned this before, but basically those that do the JV & C-Squad books seem to have no formal training. The personnel doing the Sub-Varsity books have done it for at least a season normally, however the coaches never have taken the time to train them in their duties, or that they are supposed to be neutral while at the table.

I actually warned the visiting book during both the JV Girls' & C-Squad Boys' games that they could not cheer or make remarks at the table, or I would see that they be replaced.

During the Girls' Varsity game, the visitiing book was yelling at the officials about calls, but the scoreboard operator gave him the "if looks could kill" & thankfully he got the hint to be quiet.

Yes, the official book should be keeping track of the fouls, the score, timeouts, & AP, however everyone doing scorebook (both official & non-official) need to be properly trained so that both books should be keeping track of everything.