Hell of a game last night, feedback on a OOB call...

[Berkut]

Had a great BJV game last night between two of the better programs in the area.

Anyway, had one situation that I would love to hear some feedback on.

2nd half, home team has the ball in the frontcourt, and it is stolen. I am lead, transitioning to trail, and am across the court from the table.

Ball is moving up the table side of the court, and I am hustling over to get there when it is knocked loose towards the table, but still in the back court. I clearly see the ball go off White's hands, then go behind a couple of players who are going after it (by behind, I mean from my perspective, ie the players screened my view).

Ball goes OOB near the scorers bench, home side of the court (backcourt), ie on my line.

Blow my whistle, stick my hand up, but while I saw the ball last touched by white, I could NOT tell if anyone touched it after that. I look at my partner, who was on that side, but hustling up court to try to beat the fast break down, and hope he has something...but he isn't looking at me at all, so I am guessing he does not.

I point down court and say "Black ball!", and the place goes nuts. The coach for white, the players for white, the fans, everyone is screaming bloody murder, while black is cheering and high-fiving each other.

Now, I am about 98% sure at this point that black must have touched that ball after white, just from the reaction of a ****load of people who all had a better look than I did. But I did not see black touch it.

I call my partner over, and as expected, he cannot help. We confer very briefly, then I signal BLACK ball, and we go on amidst the outraged groans from the home bench, the screaming of fans, and the cheering of the visitors. :P

It was fun.

Anyway, a couple of questions:

1. I definitely saw that ball go off white, but have no definite knowledge whether or not it was touched afterwards. Not having seen it touch anyone else, but also knowing that you didn't have a good look at what happened *after* white touched it, should I have considered going AP when it was clear my partner had no help, prior to my initial signal, when I was still holding my arm up and hoping for help?

2. Once I signaled black ball, and then realized from the rather overwhelming response that I had probably missed another touch, would anyone consider reversing this without their partner coming in an telling them he say it go off of black? I would guess not, as it opens up a can of worms, since we would be reversing a call based on the reaction of the players, rather than any actual knowledge we got it wrong. What about going AP at that point? Again, seems like that would be hard (impossible) to justify to the other coach once you make the call.

3. Any other pointers on how to handle this, beyond the obvious of "don't get screened"? Or is this just one of those things that happens now and again, and there isn't a lot you can do about it once it does happen?

[ILRef80]

If you don't know, go to the arrow. Don't guess.

Around here, in two man crews, your partner would have been responsible for that line. The lead has their sideline and the endline, while the trail just has their sideline. Your new lead probably has the best view on this play. If neither of you saw it, just go to the arrow. You have to make compromises in a two man crew, and this is one of them, IMO.

[bob jenkins]

1) I think it's your partner's call (he has that line, even in the BC, even in transitions).

2) You can try reading the players before making a call.

[Jurassic Referee]

You can only call what you see. Guessing...and second-guessing...is not an option. There's not much that you can do after you've already made the call. Get the ball back into play as soon as you can. The players will go back to playing and the coaches will go back to coaching(after maybe grumbling a bit)...and we don't really care what the fans do or think.

Doo-doo happens. There's not much else you could have done imo.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by Berkut

I point down court and say "Black ball!", and the place goes nuts. The coach for white, the players for white, the fans, everyone is screaming bloody murder, while black is cheering and high-fiving each other.

Now, I am about 98% sure at this point that black must have touched that ball after white, just from the reaction of a ****load of people who all had a better look than I did. But I did not see black touch it.

I call my partner over, and as expected, he cannot help. We confer very briefly, then I signal white ball, and we go on amidst the outraged groans from the home bench, the screaming of fans, and the cheering of the visitors. :P

SOunds like you did change the call, am I correct?

Anyway, 3 person fixes this situation 95% of the time. That spot on the floor with 2 is SO TOUGH. Not a whole lot you can do but go with what you see, ask for partner's help, look for the kids' reaction before signaling.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by ILRef80

If you don't know, go to the arrow. Don't guess.

Around here, in two man crews, your partner would have been responsible for that line. The lead has their sideline and the endline, while the trail just has their sideline. Your new lead probably has the best view on this play. If neither of you saw it, just go to the arrow. You have to make compromises in a two man crew, and this is one of them, IMO.

Good Lord. He made the call with the info he had, you can't go to the arrow after the fact. How weak would that appear? You changed your call because of pressure from the coaches, or worse, the fans.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

SOunds like you did change the call, am I correct?

Anyway, 3 person fixes this situation 95% of the time. That spot on the floor with 2 is SO TOUGH. Not a whole lot you can do but go with what you see, ask for partner's help, look for the kids' reaction before signaling.

Nope, sorry, that is a typo - I signalled black ball.

I even re-read my post, damnit. Uggh.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by ILRef80

If you don't know, go to the arrow. Don't guess.

But that is just it - I *did* know that white touched it before it went OOB - just don't know if it was touched *again* - judging from the reactions after I called the ball off white, it was...

I was not guessing, just making a decision based on (probably) incomplete information.

Around here, in two man crews, your partner would have been responsible for that line. The lead has their sideline and the endline, while the trail just has their sideline. Your new lead probably has the best view on this play. If neither of you saw it, just go to the arrow. You have to make compromises in a two man crew, and this is one of them, IMO.

Even in the backcourt?

We tend to want to the lead to help out on this call, but the sidelines in backcourt are the trails. now I shall have to go and check the mechanics manual to see if maybe we are not doing that correctly.

I was a little dissapointed my partner could not help - I try to stress how important it is for the lead to be cognizant of this spot on the floor, but it was looking like a fast break transition, so I cannot really fault him for being focused on getting down to the baseline.

[ILRef80]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

Good Lord. He made the call with the info he had, you can't go to the arrow after the fact. How weak would that appear? You changed your call because of pressure from the coaches, or worse, the fans.

I wasn't at all trying to berate the guy, so your tone isn't necessary.

From what I gathered, he changed the call. My suggestion to go to the arrow would be in future cases (provided you don't know who touched it last).

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) I think it's your partner's call (he has that line, even in the BC, even in transitions).

Doh!

That would have been ugly - I don't even think he was looking back.

2) You can try reading the players before making a call.

Good advice - I held my signal for a while, hoping for help, but I guess I did not really look at the players. Thanks for the pointer, I hope I remember it in the heat of the moment next time.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by ILRef80

I wasn't at all trying to berate the guy, so your tone isn't necessary.

From what I gathered, he changed the call. My suggestion to go to the arrow would be in future cases (provided you don't know who touched it last).

Sorry, that was an error in my post (which I have now edited). I did NOT change the call in fact.

At the time, I felt the only way I would change my call is if my partner was able to tell me he saw the ball go off of black. I guess I still feel that way.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by ILRef80

I wasn't at all trying to berate the guy, so your tone isn't necessary.

From what I gathered, he changed the call. My suggestion to go to the arrow would be in future cases (provided you don't know who touched it last).

OK, yes, sorry for my tone. If he hadn't seen anything and hadn't signaled yet, and his partner had no help, and he couldn't tell by the body language of the players... then go to the arrow.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Berkut

But that is just it - I *did* know that white touched it before it went OOB - just don't know if it was touched *again* - judging from the reactions after I called the ball off white, it was...

I was not guessing, just making a decision based on (probably) incomplete information.



Even in the backcourt?

We tend to want to the lead to help out on this call, but the sidelines in backcourt are the trails. now I shall have to go and check the mechanics manual to see if maybe we are not doing that correctly.

I was a little dissapointed my partner could not help - I try to stress how important it is for the lead to be cognizant of this spot on the floor, but it was looking like a fast break transition, so I cannot really fault him for being focused on getting down to the baseline.

Depends where you are.

When I work with my partners, we have our sidelines endline to endline.

In this situation, it would've been easier if the new L had either made a call or if he was unsure to stop the clock and ask for help. The extra time may not have made it easier for the new T to help, but that's a great chance to see if the players give the call away. Come together, talk, go with the players' reaction.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Berkut

Even in the backcourt?

We tend to want to the lead to help out on this call, but the sidelines in backcourt are the trails. now I shall have to go and check the mechanics manual to see if maybe we are not doing that correctly.

I was trained that the lead is responsible for his entire sideline, even in the backcourt. The Federation Official's Manual only states that the offical is responsible for the closest sideline and endline and does not differentiate beteween front and backcourt so it seems that the Fed agrees.

As I've been learning, this is tough to see in transition but the lead needs to be looking over his shoulder and watching the play. I've been conciously working on not putting my head down and running to my new position while transitioning to lead but it has been tough no doubt.

Keep in mind also that coaches and fans hoot and holler about a lot of things, but it doesn't make them right. Last week I had a coach grousing over a couple of out of bounds calls I made against his team when his dribbler would lose the ball and it would ricochet off their foot out of bounds. He could not comprehend how his dribbler could just lose the ball and it not be deflected by the other team. Not much you can do with that one.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by Berkut

Sorry, that was an error in my post (which I have now edited). I did NOT change the call in fact.

At the time, I felt the only way I would change my call is if my partner was able to tell me he saw the ball go off of black. I guess I still feel that way.

Yes, good job, you are correct. Once you made the call, the call was made and a change without help from your partner would have been unfounded. You did it right. Like Jurassic said, everyone will get over it fairly quickly.