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View Poll Results: Block, Charge or No Call?
Block? 4 5.97%
Charge? 61 91.04%
No Call? 2 2.99%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 15, 2010, 12:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin green View Post
I have no problems with Lead's positon. I also have no problem with Trail calling this .... I just cant figure out why Trail would think this is a block...

Who was tthe game Watreford and Roland Hall?
lol....nope South Summit
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 15, 2010, 03:46am
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I think that NevadaRef said it most correctly.

The camera angle is different than the L or T aspect. The biggest scenario here is the simultaneous whistle and what do you do. This is answered by

#1. Primary Area of Responsibility.

The contact even though the offensive player was coming from the T's primary occurred 2 feet inside the key. In the 2 person coverage, this is the Leads primary area of responsibility. The lead could have been in a better angle to see between the players. The lead correctly initiated the proper mechanic by raising his fist to indicate foul. Whether he had a block or charge he was correct. Some of you wanted a call because a player or players are on the floor. Don't necessarily fall victim to making a call just because a player is on the boards. The trail gave an improper mechanic by waving the no shot. You have to stop the clock. The official reported in an earlier tag that the L relinquished the call the T. Why? This was the L's call and he bailed. Blow your whistle and get the guts to make the call.

#2. Referee the Defense

To help you make the judgement call, referee the defense. We know that the contact was initiated by the offense but that is not important in this case. If you ask use the principle of refereeing the defense if will become easier to make the block/charge call or blarge call. Did the defender establish a legal guarding position. If you answer yes, then the only call you could have is a charge. The defender in this case took it in the shoulder and not the torso and he did a flop in the camera angle but in the L's angle this wouldn't be evident. If the L determined that the defense had established a legal guarding position then only a charge could be called. If a legal guarding position was not established then the contact would be a block if the basket was missed and you felt that the defense had put the shooter at a disadvantage.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 15, 2010, 04:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBallEvaluator View Post
The defender in this case took it in the shoulder and not the torso.......
So what?


Quote:
If a legal guarding position was not established then the contact would be a block if the basket was missed and you felt that the defense had put the shooter at a disadvantage.
It couldn't be a block if the basket was made?
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 15, 2010, 04:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBallEvaluator View Post
The official reported in an earlier tag that the L relinquished the call the T. Why?
I believe it was because the T immediately waved off the try. That tells anyone in the gym who knows anything about basketball that he has a PC foul. So unless the Lead wants to create a blarge, the best thing to do is to simply drop his fist and let his quick-signaling partner take it.

Given the circumstances, I think that the Lead did the best thing that he could, which was yield to his partner no matter what his own decision would have been.

I also must applaud Clark Kent for posting video of himself. It's not easy to open yourself up for critique. I sincerely hope that the feedback which he obtained in this thread will serve him well in the future.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 15, 2010, 04:42am
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JAR,
Don't be so harsh on bbeval.

I believe that his first comment about the torso was written as a strong indicator of a charge/PC, but not that he is saying that this wasn't a PC or that off-center contact could not be a charge. He was merely citing a rule of thumb, which official apply on the court to help determine if contact warrants a charge.

Secondly, I believe that his other comment is to be taken in the spirit of advantage/disadvantage. Some posters wrote that due to the defender leaning back and perhaps bailing out a little early that they would consider not calling a foul on this play at all. That decision is far more acceptable if the try is successful for the official can claim that the contact did not put either player at a disadvantage. FWIW I think that is what bbeval was getting at.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 15, 2010, 01:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I also must applaud Clark Kent for posting video of himself. It's not easy to open yourself up for critique. I sincerely hope that the feedback which he obtained in this thread will serve him well in the future.
lol...yep it is worth the learning experience! I love the insight I get. Thanks
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 24, 2010, 01:04am
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Thanks for the back up Nevada. You got the intent of what I was writing/thinking. And yes, regardless of the whether the basket is made or not is immaterial to calling the block.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 25, 2010, 03:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slow whistle View Post
I got some a really good perspective on the whole block/charge thing from one of my partners last Fri. He is a guy who worked the state finals years ago, D1, and then just recently retired after a long NBA career. His position was that officials at all levels don't call nearly enough PC fouls because 1) there is a distorted consensus about what makes up a pc foul and 2) officials aren't sure what to call a lot of times and the default is to go with a block or no call if you aren't sure . It is sort of along the lines of why there aren't enough T's called, a lot of officials just default to ignoring unsportsmanlike conduct rather than dealing with it - once you accept that PC fouls (like techs) are just another foul and there doesn't need to be a lot of drama, it makes it much easier to call. I couldn't agree with this more and I know I myself am guilty of it at times. I'm trying to really focus on the fact that there doesn't need to be a huge crash with bodies on the floor in order to have a pc foul. If you have a player with LGP and there is contact that displaces that defender you have a pc foul - and leaning back, turning to absorb contact, those are not things that cause it to NOT be a pc foul.
Amen to this on MANY levels. I get mad at officials that state that a defender "bailed out" when he would have gotten mowed through anyway and then they call a block because of it. In pregames make sure outside guys have SLOW whistles because that lead is going to come out with a signal instinctively!
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 25, 2010, 03:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Hohn View Post
Amen to this on MANY levels. I get mad at officials that state that a defender "bailed out" when he would have gotten mowed through anyway and then they call a block because of it. In pregames make sure outside guys have SLOW whistles because that lead is going to come out with a signal instinctively!
Yup. The one blocking foul I think is missed a lot is when the defender gets another step up after the shooter goes airborne. But refereeing the defense gets that one pretty well.

My default on a crash is a PC foul until proven otherwise (I don't really mean this to sound this strong, but it's how it's coming out of my keyboard). The ball-handler invariably initiates the contact and many times the defender has established LGP. Just cause he's moving or shielding himself or whatever means nothing to me.
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