Block? Charge? No call?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by representing

in my honest opinion, it looked like a block. Take a closer look, the player with the ball picked up the dribble and just at that moment you can see the defensive player takes a jump forward. He lost his previous guarding position and I don't think he was in his new guarding position long enough before contact. I would have called a block for sure, but I'd have had to be there for a better answer.

How long does he have to be in the new position?

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by representing

in my honest opinion, it looked like a block. Take a closer look, the player with the ball picked up the dribble and just at that moment you can see the defensive player takes a jump forward. He lost his previous guarding position and I don't think he was in his new guarding position long enough before contact. I would have called a block for sure, but I'd have had to be there for a better answer.

What would make it "long enough"? Remember no time/distance required when defending a player with the ball. Did he establish his position before the ball handler left the floor? Looks to me 100% yes.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by representing

in my honest opinion, it looked like a block. Take a closer look, the player with the ball picked up the dribble and just at that moment you can see the defensive player takes a jump forward. He lost his previous guarding position and I don't think he was in his new guarding position long enough before contact. I would have called a block for sure, but I'd have had to be there for a better answer.

I cannot see the video at work. But hilighted above is not proper. Finishing the dribble and being there long enough have nothing to do with the call.

Did B1 establish LGP? Did B1 get to the spot of the collision first? Did A1 go airborne? Did B1 move after A1 went airborne?

Those are things you should be looking at.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by representing

in my honest opinion, it looked like a block. Take a closer look, the player with the ball picked up the dribble and just at that moment you can see the defensive player takes a jump forward. He lost his previous guarding position and I don't think he was in his new guarding position long enough before contact. I would have called a block for sure, but I'd have had to be there for a better answer.

Can you please explain why picking up the dribble is relevant?

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by representing

in my honest opinion, it looked like a block. Take a closer look, the player with the ball picked up the dribble and just at that moment you can see the defensive player takes a jump forward. He lost his previous guarding position and I don't think he was in his new guarding position long enough before contact. I would have called a block for sure, but I'd have had to be there for a better answer.

player with the ball "time and distance are not a factor in establishing legal guarding position"

The first time I looked at this I had PC I watched it a couple more times with the same thought. Read this post looked again and I came away with......PC

[Clark Kent]

Thanks guys. I love to read your opinions and break down a simple play that could cause some problems.

For the record Trail was waiving off the shot....he pauses when he realizes L has a whistle too. Lead drops and T goes PC.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Thanks guys. I love to read your opinions and break down a simple play that could cause some problems.

For the record Trail was waiving off the shot....he pauses when he realizes L has a whistle too. Lead drops and T goes PC.

Mind sharing any of the post-game discussion? What were the points brought up, in review who should have had the call, etc?

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Thanks guys. I love to read your opinions and break down a simple play that could cause some problems.

For the record Trail was waiving off the shot....he pauses when he realizes L has a whistle too. Lead drops and T goes PC.

Which one are you? L or T?

[slow whistle]

I got some a really good perspective on the whole block/charge thing from one of my partners last Fri. He is a guy who worked the state finals years ago, D1, and then just recently retired after a long NBA career. His position was that officials at all levels don't call nearly enough PC fouls because 1) there is a distorted consensus about what makes up a pc foul and 2) officials aren't sure what to call a lot of times and the default is to go with a block or no call if you aren't sure . It is sort of along the lines of why there aren't enough T's called, a lot of officials just default to ignoring unsportsmanlike conduct rather than dealing with it - once you accept that PC fouls (like techs) are just another foul and there doesn't need to be a lot of drama, it makes it much easier to call. I couldn't agree with this more and I know I myself am guilty of it at times. I'm trying to really focus on the fact that there doesn't need to be a huge crash with bodies on the floor in order to have a pc foul. If you have a player with LGP and there is contact that displaces that defender you have a pc foul - and leaning back, turning to absorb contact, those are not things that cause it to NOT be a pc foul.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

If you have a player with LGP and there is contact that displaces that defender you have a pc foul - and leaning back, turning to absorb contact, those are not things that cause it to NOT be a pc foul.

True,however, if the defender is leaning back and I don't believe the contact was enough to displace the defender had they not be leaning, then I've got a no call. This is what makes it a flop in my opinion. The players lean for a reason. The primary one being to get a PC called against the offense.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

True,however, if the defender is leaning back and I don't believe the contact was enough to displace the defender had they not be leaning, then I've got a no call. This is what makes it a flop in my opinion. The players lean for a reason. The primary one being to get a PC called against the offense.

But leaning is allowed, and they're still entitled to the spot, so if he's leaning backwards and still gets displaced, it's still a foul.

Now, if he'd have fallen anyway due to his leaning, then there's likely no foul; whether it was a flop or just a poorly executed move to absorb the contact.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

But leaning is allowed, and they're still entitled to the spot, so if he's leaning backwards and still gets displaced, it's still a foul.

Now, if he'd have fallen anyway due to his leaning, then there's likely no foul; whether it was a flop or just a poorly executed move to absorb the contact.

I agree by rule they are allowed to lean. However, if they lean and the contact is marginal, it's a flop and a no call. You have to ask yourself, what caused the displacement more? The lean or the contact. In the above video, I don't believe the contact was marginal. It was PC all the way. The defender would have been displaced even if he wasn't leaning.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rwest

I agree by rule they are allowed to lean. However, if they lean and the contact is marginal, it's a flop and a no call. You have to ask yourself, what caused the displacement more? The lean or the contact. In the above video, I don't believe the contact was marginal. It was PC all the way. The defender would have been displaced even if he wasn't leaning.

We're mostly in alignment, but I'm saying whether the lean contributed to the fall isn't relevant. To me, if the lean would have caused him to fall without contact, then the contact is incidental. If the contact contributed to the fall, however, then it's a foul even if the contact might not have caused him to fall if he wasn't leaning. Leaning is legal, so he shouldn't be punished (by allowing another player to knock him down) for doing it.

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by rwest

True,however, if the defender is leaning back and I don't believe the contact was enough to displace the defender had they not be leaning, then I've got a no call. This is what makes it a flop in my opinion. The players lean for a reason. The primary one being to get a PC called against the offense.

They also lean b/c some of them are scared of contact, but that doesn't mean they can't take a pc foul. The judgement as you said is whether or not the contact was enough to displace, but the lean on its own does not rule out the pc, that's all I am saying.

[Rich]

He really wasn't leaning *that* much.

My opinion:

It's a PC foul. The defender established LGP well before the shooter was airborne. Mitigating contact with a small lean is different than flopping. He didn't start to the floor before he was hit.

2-person, I'd want that as the lead. I'm refereeing the defense in my primary. Wish the video played for a few more seconds to see the officials handle the double whistle.