T for 2

[constable]

Originally Posted by tjones1

It would depend.. it might be a technical, might not.

Either way, it's certainly not flagrant.

It is interesting to get people's take on how things should be called. Not long ago we had a thread and it involved a coach attacking an officials integrity and cheating his team. Many people deemed that to be flagrant yet apparently this is different?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by constable

It is interesting to get people's take on how things should be called. Not long ago we had a thread and it involved a coach attacking an officials integrity and cheating his team. Many people deemed that to be flagrant yet apparently this is different?

Personally, I can't foresee any circumstance where I wouldn't call this T; and if I though the coach was honestly accusing me of making up the rules, it might be flagrant. The thing is, it's a throw-away-comment for some coaches, like "call it both ways."

The latter is, really, an accusation of cheating if you look at the words used. The intent, however, is rarely that nefarious, so it's hardly ever called a flagrant. In the case of the assistant coach who blatantly and purposefully accused the officials of cheating his kids, however, he's done; for two reasons.

1. He's an assistant coach. Far less leeway and benefit of the doubt.
2. He'd already been warned, and proceeded to escalate his comments to the accusation. I'm assuming he means it as it came out in this case; and even a head coach would likely get an ejection seat.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The thing is, it's a throw-away-comment for some coaches, like "call it both ways."

And I personally don't regard that as a throw-away comment. I regard it as an attack on my integrity and I won't put up with it. It's a warning followed by a "T" if the coach is dumb enough to say it again to me. When someone says something like that, imo they're accusing me of being biased.

You can question my judgment but I won't let anyone question my integrity.

Every official has a different line in the sand and a different trigger. That's one of mine. It's up to the coaches to figure out what they can get away with in any particular game. If you let them know, they should have no complaint later if they do cross an official's personal line and get nailed after being warned.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I personally don't regard that as a throw-away comment. I regard it as an attack on my integrity and I won't put up with it. It's a warning followed by a "T" if the coach is dumb enough to say it again to me. When someone says something like that, imo they're accusing me of being biased.

IMO, it's worse than that. Bias is a matter of attitude. But the only reason to say "call it both ways" is if the official is NOT calling it both ways, that is, acting unfairly.

That's an accusation of cheating. One approach is to ask the coach, "Are you aware that you're accusing me of cheating?" Usually they're not.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mbyron

That's an accusation of cheating. One approach is to ask the coach, "Are you aware that you're accusing me of cheating?"

And I've asked coaches that exact same question.

A coach has got a better chance of getting away with calling me an azzhole than getting away with "call it both ways".

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

That's an accusation of cheating. One approach is to ask the coach, "Are you aware that you're accusing me of cheating?" Usually they're not.

That's what I meant by "throw away line." They use it because they've heard it a thousand times before, but they don't think about the ramifications. Sort of like "over the back" and "reach." They don't think about the fact that you can't have a foul without contact, so they continually toss it around.

I think they need to be aware of what it means, even though it's not as strong a trigger for me as it is for JR. I think it's similar to telling me the foul count.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by constable

It is interesting to get people's take on how things should be called. Not long ago we had a thread and it involved a coach attacking an officials integrity and cheating his team. Many people deemed that to be flagrant yet apparently this is different?

I am getting to this thread late. I guess I did not see it earlier or pay close attention.

But you cannot speak for all of us. I do not know if the comments above would even be a T unless there were coupled with some other comments. Sorry, but if that is all a coach said, that is not a T from me. And I do not know any official that said it is "flagrant" if they question your integrity or claim you are cheating their team. It might be a T, but you would have to show me where people said it was flagrant. And everyone has a right to their opinion, but many things have context and you need to say more than this to get a T every time.

Peace