did we get this right tonight?

[representing]

A1 is shooting a jump shot. On his way down, still airborne, he gets fouled by B1. Just as I'm blowing my whistle, my partner is blowing his whistle for a different foul. I go to talk to him and I told him what I had. He told me he had a push on A2. Opposite teams fouling, he said double foul. I said to him "ok, A1 will shoot two and then we go to the arrow". He said no, double fouls eliminate each other and we go to the arrow.

I'm pretty sure we should have given A1 two shots and then either go to the arrow or give B the ball out of bounds for the foul on A2. It was a blowout game from a few minutes into the game, and this occurred in the 4th quarter so it's not like it was going to affect the outcome.

Help with this one please?

In addition to this, I called an intentional foul for a player pushing a shooter in the back, and a technical on a player for chest-bumping an opponent. Both on the team losing with a very frustrated coach and heckling fans. Wasn't a good game tonight, I would have much rather been elsewhere.

[Jurassic Referee]

It's not a double foul; it's a simultaneous foul. Double fouls are committed by 2 opponents against each other. That didn't happen in your situation.

You charge each player with a foul, no FT's are shot and you resume at the POI. In this particular case, because the try had left the shooter's hands before the foul the POI also happens to be the arrow.

See rules 4-19-10, 4-36-2(c) and 10-6PENALTIES1(d).

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by representing

A1 is shooting a jump shot. On his way down, still airborne, he gets fouled by B1. Just as I'm blowing my whistle, my partner is blowing his whistle for a different foul. I go to talk to him and I told him what I had. He told me he had a push on A2. Opposite teams fouling, he said double foul. I said to him "ok, A1 will shoot two and then we go to the arrow". He said no, double fouls eliminate each other and we go to the arrow.

I'm pretty sure we should have given A1 two shots and then either go to the arrow or give B the ball out of bounds for the foul on A2. It was a blowout game from a few minutes into the game, and this occurred in the 4th quarter so it's not like it was going to affect the outcome.

Help with this one please?

In addition to this, I called an intentional foul for a player pushing a shooter in the back, and a technical on a player for chest-bumping an opponent. Both on the team losing with a very frustrated coach and heckling fans. Wasn't a good game tonight, I would have much rather been elsewhere.

This is a simultaneous foul, not a double foul - see 4-19-10, penalty summary is at the end of rule 10.

Other than that your partner was correct - no FT's, and since there was no team control at POI, you go to the arrow.

[representing]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's not a double foul; it's a simultaneous foul. Double fouls are committed by 2 opponents against each other. That didn't happen in your situation.

You charge each player with a foul, no FT's are shot and you resume at the POI. In this particular case, the POI also happens to be the arrow.

See rules 4-19-10, 4-36-2(c) and 10-6PENALTIES1(d).

Wow, we really got it wrong then (except the part that no FT are shot). Thanks.

And now that you mentioned it, the POI would be the arrow because of no team possession.

Do Simultaneous fouls cancel each other out, which would be the reason not to be shooting anything? What if either team was in the bonus?

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by representing

Wow, we really got it wrong then (except the part that no FT are shot). Thanks.

And now that you mentioned it, the POI would be the arrow because of no team possession.

Do Simultaneous fouls cancel each other out, which would be the reason not to be shooting anything? What if either team was in the bonus?

Because.....wait for it...... that's the rule...

PENALTIES: (Rule 10 Summary)
1. No free throws:
a. For each common foul before the bonus rule is in effect.
b. For a player-control or team-control foul.
c. For double personal or technical fouls (point of interruption).
d. For simultaneous personal or technical fouls by opponents (point of
interruption).
e. After time has expired for the fourth quarter (or extra period), unless
the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by representing

Do Simultaneous fouls cancel each other out, which would be the reason not to be shooting anything? What if either team was in the bonus?

See rule 10-6PENALTIES1(d).

That's kinda why I looked it up for you...so you could look it up....and learn it.

[bas2456]

Not disputing your explanation Jurrassic, because it's correct. But as a newer official let me break it down "out loud", then you all can correct me if need be.

A1 is fouled in the act of shooting. Based on the OP, it's well after the shot is released. At approx. the same time, A2 fouls B2.

This is a simultaneous foul, not a double foul.

By rule, we go to Point of Interruption. My first instinct was to say that POI would be the free throw, but since the ball was released on a shot, there is no team control. This is why we go to the possession arrow.

If the A1 was fouled before the release of the shot, there would still be team control, thus the POI would be two free throws for A1. Is that correct?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bas2456

If the A1 was fouled before the release of the shot, there would still be team control, thus the POI would be two free throws for A1. Is that correct?

Lah me.....

See rule 10-6PENALTIES1(d).

Then see rule 4-36-2(a)

No FT's and team A gets a throw-in(without the arrow changing).

Now you guys tell me where the A throw-in location is, by rule? And a rules reference would be just peachy-keen too.

[bas2456]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Lah me.....

See rule 10-6PENALTIES1(d).

Then see rule 4-36-2(a)

No FT's and team gets a throw-in(without the arrow changing).

Now you guys tell me where the A throw-in location is, by rule? And a rules reference would be just peachy-keen too.

Well that would be the spot nearest to where the ball was located at the time of interruption 4.19.10

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bas2456

Well that would be the spot nearest to where the ball was located at the time of interruption 4.19.10

Actually it's in rule 4-36-2(a), as I cited in the same post asking that question. I was just kinda wondering if anybody would take the time to look that cite up.

[bas2456]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Actually it's in rule 4-36-2(a), as I cited in the same post asking that question. I was just kinda wondering if anybody would take the time to look that cite up.

I was about to put that, but the case book used clearer language to me. It also cites 7-5-3b

[representing]

Thanks for the explanation. My "disappearance" was because I went to play some pick-up basketball with my buddies at the local Y. But I just wanted to say thanks.

So according to your explanations, we pretty much did everything correct, except that we called it a double foul instead of simultaneous. I emailed my partner prior to leaving and told him that we got it all right except that it is a simultaneous foul instead of double foul. He has emailed me back to say that he agreed after reading the rulebook on that one.

Thanks again!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's not a double foul; it's a simultaneous foul. Double fouls are committed by 2 opponents against each other. That didn't happen in your situation.

You charge each player with a foul, no FT's are shot and you resume at the POI. In this particular case, because the try had left the shooter's hands before the foul the POI also happens to be the arrow.

See rules 4-19-10, 4-36-2(c) and 10-6PENALTIES1(d).

Unless, of course, the try was good.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by representing

A1 is shooting a jump shot. On his way down, still airborne, he gets fouled by B1. Just as I'm blowing my whistle, my partner is blowing his whistle for a different foul. I go to talk to him and I told him what I had. He told me he had a push on A2. Opposite teams fouling, he said double foul. I said to him "ok, A1 will shoot two and then we go to the arrow". He said no, double fouls eliminate each other and we go to the arrow.

I'm pretty sure we should have given A1 two shots and then either go to the arrow or give B the ball out of bounds for the foul on A2. It was a blowout game from a few minutes into the game, and this occurred in the 4th quarter so it's not like it was going to affect the outcome.

Help with this one please?

In addition to this, I called an intentional foul for a player pushing a shooter in the back, and a technical on a player for chest-bumping an opponent. Both on the team losing with a very frustrated coach and heckling fans. Wasn't a good game tonight, I would have much rather been elsewhere.

Why are you asking?
From your previous posts on the forum, I thought that you were an ACE and knew everything.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Unless, of course, the try was good.

Which it wasn't. Which is why I added "in this particular case".

But that's still a good point for teaching purposes.