did we get this right tonight?

[KJUmp]

As a 2nd yr. newbie (not board certified) I've found this thread very helpful in getting a clearer understanding of double and simultaneous fouls. I have always found these confusing on tests and despite my wearing the print off the applicable sections of the rule book and case book regarding double&simultaneous fouls I've never felt confident in my ability to recognize which one occurred, determine if player and/or team control existed, and administer the whole thing properly, with confidence and certainty in the heat of a game. I'm sure like the OP, I may have gotten it right by luck...not by firm knowledge and understanding of all aspects of the rule.
To Jurassic, Tim,& Bits, thanks for your replies...with my books on my lap and reading and re-reading your posts I think now I've got it down, here's my own recap...kind of a way for me to keep it straight on the court in the heat of a game:
(1) A1&B1 commit a PF or TF on each other at approx. the same time=
DOUBLE FOUL 4-19-8 (a) (Ex> A1&B1 shoving each other underneath the basket)
(2) A1 commits a PF or TF on B1 AND at approx. the same time A2 commits a PF or TF on B2=
SIMULTANEOUS FOUL 4-19-10 (Ex> Sitch in OP)
(3) Each player is charged with a PF
(4) No FREE THROWS and resume play at POI
10-6 Summary 1(c) and 1(d) and 4-36-1; 4-36-2(a) or 4-36-2(b)
EXCEPT if there was no team control then....
(5) Resume play by the A/P arrow 4-36-2(c)
(6) If any of the fouls are flagrant player 9s) who committed flagrant foul(s) are DQ'd.
Do I have it right?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

(4) No FREE THROWS and resume play at POI
10-6 Summary 1(c) and 1(d) and 4-36-1; 4-36-2(a) or 4-36-2(b)
EXCEPT if there was no team control then....
(5) Resume play by the A/P arrow 4-36-2(c)

You resume play at the POI whether or not there was team control.

The POI might be the arrow.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

I think now I've got it down, here's my own recap...kind of a way for me to keep it straight on the court in the heat of a game:
(1) A1&B1 commit a PF or TF on each other at approx. the same time=
DOUBLE FOUL 4-19-8 (a) (Ex> A1&B1 shoving each other underneath the basket)
(2) A1 commits a PF or TF on B1 AND at approx. the same time A2 commits a PF or TF on B2=
SIMULTANEOUS FOUL 4-19-10 (Ex> Sitch in OP)
(3) Each player is charged with a PF
(4) No FREE THROWS and resume play at POI
10-6 Summary 1(c) and 1(d) and 4-36-1; 4-36-2(a) or 4-36-2(b)
EXCEPT if there was no team control then....
(5) Resume play by the A/P arrow 4-36-2(c)
(6) If any of the fouls are flagrant player 9s) who committed flagrant foul(s) are DQ'd.
Do I have it right?

No, in #2 you have two teammates committing fouls against different opponents at approximately the same time. A simultaneous foul involves fouls committed by opposing teams, not the same team. The NFHS currently has no rule to cover the situation which you have posted.

Also, your resumption of play is bit off. Remember to include the three step process for POI: 1. ball to team in control. 2. ball to team entitled to FT or throw-in. 3. AP arrow.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

No, in #2 you have two teammates committing fouls against different opponents at approximately the same time. A simultaneous foul involves fouls committed by opposing teams, not the same team. The NFHS currently has no rule to cover the situation which you have posted.

I beg to differ, CumquatHead.

It'a a false multiple foul, as per NFHS 4-20-12. You've got 2 or more fouls committed by the same team and the last foul is committed before the clock is started following the first foul. The attribute of a multiple foul that is missing is that the fouls aren't committed against the same opponent, but against 2 separate opponents. All of the other attributes of a multiple foul under 4-19-11 are there.

The rules cover the penalty application too. Each foul of a false multiple foul carries it's own penalty, as per 10-6PENALTIES7.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I beg to differ, CumquatHead.

It'a a false multiple foul, as per NFHS 4-20-12. You've got 2 or more fouls committed by the same team and the last foul is committed before the clock is started following the first foul. The attribute of a multiple foul that is missing is that the fouls aren't committed against the same opponent, but against 2 separate opponents. All of the other attributes of a multiple foul under 4-19-11 are there.

The rules cover the penalty application too. Each foul of a false multiple foul carries it's own penalty, as per 10-6PENALTIES7.

Well if that's what you think, then let me ask you this: if the fouls occur simultaneously and at the start of the play the team had five team fouls in that half, which opposing player would be awarded FTs?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Well if that's what you think, then let me ask you this: if the fouls occur simultaneously and at the start of the play the team had five team fouls in that half, which opposing player would be awarded FTs?

The shortest one, naturally. That's called the "Chuck Elias/RockyRoad Rule.

I was well aware that part of the penalty application wasn't covered in the rules. That doesn't change the fact that the the FED does have a rule to cover the situation. By definition and rule, it's a false multiple foul. Note that "foul definitions" and their penalty applications are covered under separate rules.

Or do you dispute that the definition of a "false multiple foul" doesn't cover the situation being discussed?

Sooooooo, now it's up to you to use your vaunted, self-proclaimed magical Spidey powers with the NFHS Rules Committee to get the penalty phase covered. I await that happening with bated breath.

[KJUmp]

Bob, Nevada, Jurassic:
Thanks for reviewing my post and for pointing out where I was a bit off. I now know/understand a whole lot better than I did yesterday.