Pecking order

[fullor30]

Had an official who is a friend, strictly does frosh/soph games with no aspirations. He's a good, dedicated official who studies the rules and takes the game seriously. In my area, there are multiple games going on at one school, freshman A/B, sophomore and Varsity. We all share the same locker room. He talked about some officials who because of their varsity status look down on the underclass officials. I can remember that somewhat when I first started but have to say in the past few years there seems to be more of a brotherhood no matter what level you officiate. I'm in the Chicago area, suburbs. I've always found the deeper I do games in the city, the more friendlier the officials are on all levels for some reason.

Wondering how your areas are regarding rank and attitude.

[bas2456]

I'm of course still new to the officiating scene, but I'm in the same area as you, fullor, and I've always been greeted nicely by the varsity officials if their game is after mine

[Ignats75]

People are people. Some nice. SOme idiots. I know long time Varsity/college Officials in both my associations that bend over backwards for you. Give you advice and even put in good words for lower level officials with assignors when warranted.

I also know younger up and coming officials who think they have all the answers. Who are rising up the ranks and think that makes them better than their peers.

I know younger / newer officials who seem to have compromising pictures of the assignors.

I just try to be the best person I can be, let my character show through my work, and have fun in this avocation.

[Texas Aggie]

I'm finding in the last few years that a number (not all, but many) of newer and/or younger officials aren't interested in hearing any comments from me and others with significant experience. A lot of us have taken the attitude now that we will speak up when asked, but aren't going to offer our viewpoint only to get an attitude back. I went to a jr. high game a few years ago to watch and critique the officials -- thinking I was there to help them out. One guy was lukewarm to my suggestions and the other one wasn't interested at all. Neither one is still around and you can be sure the assignor was made aware of everything that happened. Not that I'm the guru of critiquers around here, but the assignor knows who should be blown off and who shouldn't. The former is a very small list.

My point is not to defend people that act like they are big time or are jerks, but some have some battle wounds.

[grunewar]

I’ll agree, with some caveats.

I’m starting my fourth yr of HS ball (sixth yr overall) and have worked my way up to a partial V schedule for which I am happy and grateful to those that have helped me get where I am. That being said….

When I first arrived in my Association I felt very much the outsider (which is natural). Some V Officials were nice, cordial, friendly, while others, not so much. Of course, this could be said about many work, social or clique organizations where seniority, amongst other factors, has a place (right or wrong).

I started at the bottom – understandably. I worked with good and not so good officials (IMO). There were officials at this level who cared and others who didn’t’. At meetings and in the locker room, I was “the new guy.” Was I an up and comer? Was I there to eventually steal their games? Was I a threat? Who knows? Some refs treated me well, others not so much. Some senior officials know how to teach, coach, mentor – others don’t. Some are Neanderthals, some are aloof, some can’t talk to you without being condescending or overly critical. Others are great, helpful, and show what I call “tough love” and take their role as a Senior Official seriously.

Bottom line – on my way to where I am now, (middle of the pack in my Association by my estimates) I have met the good and the bad. Refs who were standoffish a few years ago have really given me some great assistance. This summer/fall I even reffed with several of my trainers and the most senior of our officials. I used to be intimidated now it’s awesome and I look forward to the experience! As we have stated before, learn from everyone and take bits and pieces to mold yourself.

I have worked hard and still have a ways to go yet (IMO). I find if you take the time to try hard, others will notice. I seek games and work whenever called, I accept criticism, I go into the locker room to learn from V officials – and now they ask me, “So, what did you see?”

I too believe I saw a pecking order more several yrs ago than I do now. Maybe I see it from a different perspective. Maybe I’m one of “them” now. I don't think so, but I’ll let others judge me.

When I was in the military I saw some of what I thought were “poor leaders and managers,” I learned from everyone of them, right or wrong. Treat others how you want to be treated. Never treat people poorly on your way up……as you never know when you’ll be on your way down.

I heard a quote after the first Gulf War attributed to GEN Colin Powell (although I researched it and can’t find it) who said, “Even Saddam Hussein has value. He can always be used as a bad example.”

Regardless how you may have been treated in school, work, or in life , be the bigger person. Be one of the good guys/gals!

My $.02. Rant off.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by grunewar

I’ll agree, with some caveats.

I’m starting my fourth yr of HS ball (sixth yr overall) and have worked my way up to a partial V schedule for which I am happy and grateful to those that have helped me get where I am. That being said….

When I first arrived in my Association I felt very much the outsider (which is natural). Some V Officials were nice, cordial, friendly, while others, not so much. Of course, this could be said about many work, social or clique organizations where seniority, amongst other factors, has a place (right or wrong).

I started at the bottom – understandably. I worked with good and not so good officials (IMO). There were officials at this level who cared and others who didn’t’. At meetings and in the locker room, I was “the new guy.” Was I an up and comer? Was I there to eventually steal their games? Was I a threat? Who knows? Some refs treated me well, others not so much. Some senior officials know how to teach, coach, mentor – others don’t. Some are Neanderthals, some are aloof, some can’t talk to you without being condescending or overly critical. Others are great, helpful, and show what I call “tough love” and take their role as a Senior Official seriously.

Bottom line – on my way to where I am now, (middle of the pack in my Association by my estimates) I have met the good and the bad. Refs who were standoffish a few years ago have really given me some great assistance. This summer/fall I even reffed with several of my trainers and the most senior of our officials. I used to be intimidated now it’s awesome and I look forward to the experience! As we have stated before, learn from everyone and take bits and pieces to mold yourself.

I have worked hard and still have a ways to go yet (IMO). I find if you take the time to try hard, others will notice. I seek games and work whenever called, I accept criticism, I go into the locker room to learn from V officials – and now they ask me, “So, what did you see?”

I too believe I saw a pecking order more several yrs ago than I do now. Maybe I see it from a different perspective. Maybe I’m one of “them” now. I don't think so, but I’ll let others judge me.

When I was in the military I saw some of what I thought were “poor leaders and managers,” I learned from everyone of them, right or wrong. Treat others how you want to be treated. Never treat people poorly on your way up……as you never know when you’ll be on your way down.

I heard a quote after the first Gulf War attributed to GEN Colin Powell (although I researched it and can’t find it) who said, “Even Saddam Hussein has value. He can always be used as a bad example.”

Regardless how you may have been treated in school, work, or in life , be the bigger person. Be one of the good guys/gals!

My $.02. Rant off.

Well said...........

[26 Year Gap]

Attitudes will be found on all levels. I have had lots of help along the way. Lots of good advice and some poor advice. Now as the shoe is on the other foot so to speak, if newer officials ask for advice, I try to help with one suggestion.
I had one game last year where the R was a total jerk and spent the entire halftime tearing me down. And then during a break in the 2nd half said "Isn't this a great game?" I spoke to another official later that day and found that my opinion of the guy was not unusual. Had I stayed I would have requested to not ever work with the guy again.
The best advice is to ask for advice and don't be a Yabut. And to stay and observe how the advisor practices what he preaches [not done by the above R btw]. Ask to be a part of the halftime discussion as an observer. My standard comment as a JV official was "I think you are getting what you need to get".
There is some snobbery even among crews....college guys using college mechanics, etc, but for the most part, I have found that the common bond of officiating makes for good friendships. And guys that 'look down' on lower level officials usually look down on other crew members. Although, recognition of officials who are in it for the money or who would not listen to advice if they got paid for it will usually result in those people being ignored.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

I just try to be the best person I can be, let my character show through my work, and have fun in this avocation.

If you can't have fun doing something, then why do it?

[mutantducky]

Agree with a lot of things said especially about having fun. Most of the V's refs are fine but a few are just punks who were needed and came from other associations simply because of a lack of numbers. It kind of frustrated me when I learned how low our association was regarded and part of the problem is the same refs get recycled even those who have no business doing tough games but there is a big buddy/loyalty system and quality goes down unfortunately. Or the guys they do move up look the part but when it comes to calling the games they just aren't that good. Not sure how the assigners do it but perhaps some lottery system or something random to take away the buddy system. A lot of those guys who are assigning the varsity seem to know each other and will defend refs no matter what even though there are refs because of their age have clearly dropped but they keep getting varsity games. I've been to camps and gotten to do about 15 Varsity games over the past few years but after a while you kind of see where things are and that the association or assigners aren't going to help so you got to be proactive and do it yourself.
I would also advice if it is practical to join more than one association. I know some who got assigned varsity games simply because they were outside even though they might not have been ready. Done fine so far I think.
The travel might be weak but even doing a few games outside would help.
It was great in my first couple of years working with good varsity officials and getting feedback from them. Or guys that were watching and came after the games. Too bad a lot of the new ones refuse to work lower levels and don't bother with anything but their games. Very little feedback now.
Luckily I still have fun games and some quality partners. Working close games with a big crowd is a blast.

[zebraman]

I think grunewar is having a similar experience to what mine has been.

Although it sometimes seems as if I just started, I am now one of the more senior officials in our group (14 years). I moved up steadily in the rankings from when I first started and have been fortunate enough to be in that "top group" for a while now.

On my way up, I encountered all kinds of higher-ranked officials. A few in the top who made sure I knew just how great they were and seemed intent on keeping others down. A few in the top who were great mentors and did what they could to help me along without any concern of whether or not I might someday be a direct peer. A few in the top who just did their own thing without getting involved with others at all. A few in the top who did whatever they thought made them look better in the eyes of others. They all serve a purpose.... you can see what works and what doesn't.

When I look at the handful of guys who started in the early 90's with me, I see some who have consistently worked hard and been consumate professionals. They have attended at least a few camps and use the off-season to improve rather than to develop bad habits (or do nothing). While there is some variance in "natural talent," most of those guys who work at it have climbed steadily.

Some of the others who started back then don't take it real serious and aren't too concerned about ratings. They work their games and don't complain about not getting a "top" schedule. Our assignor loves those guys - he says they "chew up innings."

Then there are a few who lace em' up in November and put em' away in March and can't figure out why the politics of our association holds them back.

I hope I am a good mentor now. If I see an official who is working hard and asking lots of questions, I will bend over backwards for them. One young official called me after last season and asked if he could work summer games with me. I had our assignor put him on my crew several times for summer leagues and tournaments and he worked with some other vets as well. He pestered me for info every game and added many tools to his game. His improvement was amazing. I am sure that he is on his way to becoming a top-rated official for us. Heck, he might pass me by in a few years and I am OK with that. I think being a top official is a privilege AND a responsibility. The responsibility is to make sure there are competent officials to take my place when I walk off the floor for the last time (many, many years away I hope).

If I see an official and I offer them some advice, I watch their reaction. If they want the info, I will continue to help them when I see them down the road. If they resist or make excuses, I won't waste my time with them anymore.