On the Hand : After the shot.

[eroe39]

Wow! I didn't think this was a contraversial concept. I guess it is. In Rule 12B Section I e of the NBA rule book it says "Contact which occurs on the hand of the offensive player, while that hand is in contact with the ball, is legal." This is what I have always been taught and our coaches no this. We can get out of arguments using this rule by saying "Bob, he got him on the hand, which is part of the ball" if we have a no call on a strip play. Or when coaches question why we had a foul we need to make sure we do not say "Bob, he got him on the hand" because they know this is not a foul and I have seen them go off on rookies who make that comment. I know a lot of you are saying but that is the pro rule. Ok, I apologize, I assumed when I wrote my original comment that the pro and college and high school rule was the same regarding this. I read the college rule and it seems to be the same although I am not sure as the language is confusing to me. It says "A player shall not contact an opponent with his or her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidetnal to an attempt to play the ball." A guess that means that if you are playing the ball it is OK but if you are not playing the ball it is not OK but I would think you are nearly always playing the ball if you hit someone's hand while it is on the ball. I could be wrong, that's just my interpretation of the college rule. I do not have a high school rule book to read their wording.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by eroe39
Ok, I apologize, I assumed when I wrote my original comment that the pro and college and high school rule was the same regarding this. I read the college rule and it seems to be the same although I am not sure as the language is confusing to me. It says "A player shall not contact an opponent with his or her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidetnal to an attempt to play the ball." A guess that means that if you are playing the ball it is OK but if you are not playing the ball it is not OK but I would think you are nearly always playing the ball if you hit someone's hand while it is on the ball. I could be wrong, that's just my interpretation of the college rule. I do not have a high school rule book to read their wording.

Eli,the NCAA rule that is really relevant is different than the one you quoted above.The pertinent rule is NCAA R4-34-2.It states:
"It shall be legal for a defender to ACCIDENTALLY hit the hand of a ball-handler when reaching to block or slap the ball when there is player control with that player's hand in contact with the ball and that player is a (a)dribbler(b)player attempting a try for field goal(c)player holding the ball".
That's a much clearer interpretation than the one you used.The high school rule basically uses the same language and concept-i.e.accidental contact on the hand is not a foul while deliberate contact can possibly be called a foul.It is up to the judgement of the official as to how to call it-accidental vs. deliberate.Most officials do call it "accidental" and no foul,but an official who does call a foul on this play because he felt the whack was deliberate is backed up by the rulebook(the same as an official who doesn't call a foul is similarly backed up).The way that you call it in your pro games is the way that it is usually called(and taught) in high school and college games too.BktBallRef was making the point that to state that this is NEVER a foul is incorrect.It CAN be called a foul by the language in the NCAA and FED books.
Btw,I agree with your statement that you are nearly always playing the ball if you hit someone's hand when it's on the ball.Any doubt in my mind makes it tough to call it a deliberate act and a foul.I ain't that good that I can read "intent" in a player on this type of call.


[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 16th, 2002 at 07:35 PM]

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by eroe39
We can get out of arguments using this rule by saying "Bob, he got him on the hand, which is part of the ball" if we have a no call on a strip play. Or when coaches question why we had a foul we need to make sure we do not say "Bob, he got him on the hand" because they know this is not a foul and I have seen them go off on rookies who make that comment.

Eli, I hate to assume, but I believe the reaction was not to your interpretation but to your wording.

When you boil it down, there is no clause in the rule book which states, verbatim, "the hand is part of the ball." If there were, we would be in big trouble. (Would it be a dribble if the player palmed the ball and "bounced" the back of his hand on the floor? BI would nearly be a non-issue, because only the ball is in the cylinder.)

I look at this similarly to a shout of "over the back!" from a coach or fan - yes, there is a foul at times, but not because A1 reached over B4.

[eroe39]

Good point and well stated Jurassic Referee.

[mick]

Originally posted by eroe39
....but I would think you are nearly always playing the ball if you hit someone's hand while it is on the ball.

Eli,
Part of this rule, if we read it closely, I think, protects the "other hand" too!
mick

[Peter Devana]

III"MMM BAAAACK!!!!
and I agree with Bob Jenkins. Where is Rut to torment??
Pistol