Disconcertion from bench

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No need to worry, Nevadaref will be along in a few minutes to help us out. He'll find it. I guarantee it.

Say what?

I just cited the damn thing verbatim for you out of POE #2 in the 2001-02 rule book. See above.

Lah me.......

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Say what?

I was referring to a casebook play, annual interpretation, or Point of Emphasis, that specifically states that bench personnel can be called for a disconcertion violation. I believe that such a citation exists, but I just can't seem to put my finger on it. All I've got is a rule citation:

NFHS 9-1-3 After the ball is placed at the disposal of a free thrower:
c. No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I do. It's POE 2C. That one refers to "players" only though, which means the 5 legally on the court, by rule. The older POE referred to the whole team, which includes bench personnel by definition(rule 4-34-2 for BillyMac).

Same old problem. The only definitive answer to some of the questions asked here lie only in long-forgotten archives. They are still valid but a lot of officials aren't aware of them.

Thanks Jurassic. You're right - this is the one I referred to and it doesn't specifically mention the bench - just "opponents outside the arc."

C. Disconcertion. Free-throw disconcertion must be carefully monitored. Of particular concern is when the free throw will become dead (first of two or first two of three). Defensive players often employ tactics which serve no
other purpose than to disconcert the shooter during free throws (“boxing out” the free thrower off the free-throw line, waving arms, yelling instructions to teammates, etc.). Another increasing trend is opponents outside the arc saying things to the thrower. With team free-throw percentages hovering in the mid-60’s on average, teams welcome a second chance free throw. They deserve it if disconcertion occurs and officials must call it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I was referring to a casebook play, annual interpretation, or Point of Emphasis, that specifically states that bench personnel can be called for a disconcertion violation. I believe that such a citation exists, but I just can't seem to put my finger on it. All I've got is a rule citation:

NFHS 9-1-3 After the ball is placed at the disposal of a free thrower:
c. No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower.

Sigh....

I gave you the relevant POE but you can't comprehend it.

Opponents are ALL members of the other team.

The POE on disconcertion that I cited above from 2001-02 said that a player OR a team can also be given a technical foul for disconcertion.

Read rule 4-34. A "player" is one of the 5 team members who are legally on the court at any given time. Ergo, according to that POE you can call a player for disconcertion, and you can also give the player a T" if the disconcertion is persistent or unsporting. Also according to 4-34, bench personnel are all individuals who are a part of or affiliated with the team(subs, coaches, managers, etc.). Ergo, also according to that POE you can call bench personnel for disconcertion and you can also give the team(bench personnel) a "T" if the disconcertion from the bench is persistent or unsporting. The POE deliberately cited BOTH the player AND the team, NOT just a player.

You have to connect the dots. That's exactly what the POE that I cited is telling you. There ain't anything else anywhere else and you don't need it anyway. That POE is definitive enough. And if you don't believe me, may I suggest that you take it to Jackie Loube or somebody and ask them. There's nothing more that I can do to explain it to you.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sigh..

You don't have to explain it to me. I don't need convincing. Never needed it. Never will. I 100% understand your posts. I 100% agree with your posts. I 100% understand the rule. What's so difficult to understand about, "No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower."? I have called opponent bench personnel for disconcertion in recreation level games. However, for those that might not agree with us, that is, those that might have trouble "connecting the dots" of your citations (which has been me on a few occasions, but not this time), I could have sworn that there was a casebook play, or an annual interpretation, that specifically spelled out, as in A1, B6, etc., that disconcertation can be called on opponent bench personnel. Maybe I dreamed it?

[bas2456]

I did in fact have the team as described in the OP, and they were up to the same shenanigans. As soon as the other team looked a bit distracted by it, I warned the coach, and it didn't happen again.

I was glad the warning worked just fine.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bas2456

I did in fact have the team as described in the OP, and they were up to the same shenanigans. As soon as the other team looked a bit distracted by it, I warned the coach, and it didn't happen again.

I was glad the warning worked just fine.

I wouldn't wait for the team to look distracted. Did you call disconcertion? If not, you allowed them to have a freebie. In this situation, I'd pregame it with my partner, and the first time they said anything they'd get warned. Their compliance tells me they're doing it on purpose, fully aware of what they're doing, and waiting for the official to stop them.

Frankly, I find it unethical coaching.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Sub-V I will warn the player in the lane or the bench. "Son (or coach) next time that's a violation." Don't recall ever going back and "getting it" later as it stops.

One time during a Wreck League game I actually said, "Alright, who's got the shooter?"

Young man said, "Me."

I said, "Good, now there's no need to talk about it anymore, right?"

They got the msg.

I used this last night in a BJV game. Worked like a charm. Pissed the kid off too. Life is good.